Waders and Drowing, again....

2

Replies

  • TomTom Senior Member Posts: 253 Senior Member
    The water in my gill pond isn't moving, just like the air in my parachute isn't moving.

    Right, that is the reason why you must spin around and move the bucket. In the river, the water is moving and you are trying to resist the movement. In the gill pond, the bucket is moving and the still water is resisting the movement.

    And in your parachute analogy, the parachute is moving thru the still air, which is providing the resistance, just like the resistance put on the bucket by the still water. Have you seen any videos of para-sailing? That is what happens when the air is moving and the parachute is resisting, the person goes flying where the wind takes them, same thing happens to waders in a fast moving river.
  • Brian D.Brian D. Senior Member Posts: 4,011 Senior Member
    One point that got glossed over a bit is that the drag on the outside of the waders, which fit more loosely than clothing, is probably more substantial than the drag from water going into the top of the waders.

    A second point from my personal experience is that the boots are a bigger problem than the waders. They're cumbersome and hard to swim with, like having weights on your feet.

    The obvious solution is to fish naked, like this guy:

    http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Man-arrested-for-fishing-nude-2024962.php

    bd
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    I've bought an inflatable PFD (no not a doll, Brian) that I'm starting to wear always in a boat and more often than not wading big water. After you get used to it, you don't even notice it.

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • TomTom Senior Member Posts: 253 Senior Member
    P6270008.jpg

    That way, if you do this...

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    Youre not toast.
  • Brian D.Brian D. Senior Member Posts: 4,011 Senior Member
    ricinus wrote: »
    I've bought an inflatable PFD (no not a doll, Brian) that I'm starting to wear always in a boat and more often than not wading big water. After you get used to it, you don't even notice it.

    Some enterprising fishing gear company ought to come up with a fishing vest with the inflatable PFD incorporated right into it. Not just a life jacket with a couple pockets, but a true honest-to-god fishing vest but with an inflatable core sewn in between the inner and outer layers.

    Ya hear me, Simms, Patagonia, Fishpond, etc?

    bd
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    Alot of folks around here are no longer using vests, opting for chest or fanny packs. I still prefer the vest as I'm pretty set in my ways.

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • ed kellehered kelleher Junior Member Posts: 3 Junior Member
    Brian D. wrote: »
    Some enterprising fishing gear company ought to come up with a fishing vest with the inflatable PFD incorporated right into it. Not just a life jacket with a couple pockets, but a true honest-to-god fishing vest but with an inflatable core sewn in between the inner and outer layers.

    Ya hear me, Simms, Patagonia, Fishpond, etc?

    bd

    Buddy of mine has one from Cabela's he wears while surf fishing. Not sure who makes it.
    A veteran is someone who, at least once in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to their nation for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'
    You don't get it? That's okay. It's a grown up thing.
  • Brian D. wrote: »
    Some enterprising fishing gear company ought to come up with a fishing vest with the inflatable PFD incorporated right into it. Not just a life jacket with a couple pockets, but a true honest-to-god fishing vest but with an inflatable core sewn in between the inner and outer layers.

    Ya hear me, Simms, Patagonia, Fishpond, etc?

    bd

    Orvis sells one.
  • Tom wrote: »
    Right, that is the reason why you must spin around and move the bucket. In the river, the water is moving and you are trying to resist the movement. In the gill pond, the bucket is moving and the still water is resisting the movement.

    And in your parachute analogy, the parachute is moving thru the still air, which is providing the resistance, just like the resistance put on the bucket by the still water. Have you seen any videos of para-sailing? That is what happens when the air is moving and the parachute is resisting, the person goes flying where the wind takes them, same thing happens to waders in a fast moving river.

    No. Sorry. You're not swimming upstream. If you think you're swimming upstream in the 50 mile riffle, you're dreaming. At best, you're swimming down and across, if you have any control at all.

    I grew up surfing. You don't paddle inshore against a riptide. You paddle out and across. Only after you're out of the riptide, do you begin to swim in towards shore. A big river is moving faster than a riptide, and you're not on a board.
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Orvis sells one.

    They used to Steven but no longer. I have one about 15 years old but do not use it...it's as heavy as a boat anchor. Now a days I wear an SOS if out in the canoe or boat.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • TomTom Senior Member Posts: 253 Senior Member
    No. Sorry. You're not swimming upstream. If you think you're swimming upstream in the 50 mile riffle, you're dreaming. At best, you're swimming down and across, if you have any control at all.

    Just what in the hell do you think youre gonna do when you lose your footing and are rocketing towards a sweeper? Swim towards it? You dont have the luxury you do in a riptide. You have 30-60sec to save your **** in cold water getting rogered on rocks along the way. Here are some pictures of teh boulder at similar flows to when the incident occurred. In some places, you have enough room to swim at a downward angle towards shore, only to try and get your footing and get swept back in again, cause youre carrying a couple hundred pounds of water in your waders. In other places, youre toast.

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    Just wear a life jacket, leave your waders in the car. I really dont see the point of this argument. All the kayakers on this river are wearing life jackets, cause theyre not dumbasses, why not anglers?
  • Tom wrote: »
    Just what in the hell do you think youre gonna do when you lose your footing and are rocketing towards a sweeper? Swim towards it? You dont have the luxury you do in a riptide. You have 30-60sec to save your **** in cold water getting rogered on rocks along the way. Here are some pictures of teh boulder at similar flows to when the incident occurred. In some places, you have enough room to swim at a downward angle towards shore, only to try and get your footing and get swept back in again, cause youre carrying a couple hundred pounds of water in your waders. In other places, youre toast.

    P7180164.jpg

    P7180156.jpg

    P7180174.jpg

    Just wear a life jacket, leave your waders in the car. I really dont see the point of this argument. All the kayakers on this river are wearing life jackets, cause theyre not dumbasses, why not anglers?

    You think you're swimming upstream against that? In your dreams. Michael Phelps combined with Mark Spitz, Rowdy Gaines, Don Schollander, Johnny Weismuller and Duke Kahanamoku ain't simming against that.

    You're effed with or without waders. And nobody said not to wear a PFD.
  • LRAmisLRAmis Junior Member Posts: 8 Junior Member
    I think the danger comes from 1. the speed and depth of moving water, 2. snags 3. the inability to move quickly out the way of hazards or to get unsnagged due to the cumbersome boots/waders/clothing, 4. panic from not being able to get out quickly 5. shock of cold water and 6. floating headfirst downstream instead of feet first. If your foot gets caught in something and you cannot get it out except by going back upstream and you cannot go back upstream due to any of the factors above - you are facing a tough situation. Having water in your waders makes none of this any easier - so reducing the amount of water by any degree is helpful. My guess is the bobbing upside down problem may be how they will find you, but not how you got there.
  • nimrodnimrod Senior Member Posts: 756 Senior Member
    Well...I've fished with Steven. And, in his defense...I once saw another guy from Illinois step off a lunker structure and disappear completely under water. It was probably a good thing he was also wearing chest waders on our spring creeks...I think I could have saved him. And, I've gone over the top of my hip boots many times in the driftless area. But, for a guy who wears chest waders on even our smaller spring creeks...Steven is showing a rare courage towards wading the big waters of the west.
    Picture055.jpg
  • SilverCreekSilverCreek Senior Member Posts: 131 Senior Member
    Jason wrote: »
    I thought the theory goes that air gets trapped in the bottom of waders taking your feet up and your head down. I've never tested this theory...

    Jason,

    If you do get washed into deep water, the recommended strategy is to get on your back, bend your knees to get the trapped air up to the knee pockets to float the lower body. The air keeps you floating so the more air, the better. It will not "up end" you.

    You backstroke to get your feet pointing downstream. Guide yourself to the shore and wait until your butt hits bottom before trying to get out of the water.
  • FlykuniFlykuni Senior Member Posts: 799 Senior Member
    Good stuff here, a lot of theory too we should admit. Will toss in another two factors: lack of outdoors awareness, and lack of agility. I think of my pal.

    Good fella, loves when I take him along and he's good company. Healthy male around 45 but he grew up in SF, isn't an athlete at all, is more at home in front of a screen than on bank of river and he'd be a candidate for drowning in a creek, not even in a rushing Madison sit. He's so unsteady on his feet and I have to baby him along, step here, stand here, cast there and if he fell -- he's over 6' -- he'd be the guy to break a rod and/or reel, his arm or leg or worse, and get found later face down. In a few inches of water. Really have to watch him. Wouldn't dare put him into a Mad sit.

    If he went in over his head into a rough sit wearing waders, well I shudder to think. He's an urban guy, just doesn't have basic athleticism and outdoors awareness. Kind of fella guides dread but love for tips.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    Sounds like your buddy is a good candidate for those self-inflating suspender life jackets. I haven't started wearing mine on rivers yet, but religiously wear it in boats. Hardly notice it anymore.

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,706 Senior Member
    Tom wrote: »
    Just what in the hell do you think youre gonna do when you lose your footing and are rocketing towards a sweeper? Swim towards it? You dont have the luxury you do in a riptide. You have 30-60sec to save your **** in cold water getting rogered on rocks along the way. Here are some pictures of teh boulder at similar flows to when the incident occurred. In some places, you have enough room to swim at a downward angle towards shore, only to try and get your footing and get swept back in again, cause youre carrying a couple hundred pounds of water in your waders. In other places, youre toast.

    P7180164.jpg

    P7180156.jpg

    P7180174.jpg

    Just wear a life jacket, leave your waders in the car. I really dont see the point of this argument. All the kayakers on this river are wearing life jackets, cause theyre not dumbasses, why not anglers?

    I don't even think I would wade that.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Brian D.Brian D. Senior Member Posts: 4,011 Senior Member
    If you're in that, your only hope is if you have a PFD on and you keep out of the strainers long enough to get to the bank. I've been in water like this (PFD on, no waders though). You don't have a chance in hell of swimming upstream against it. A strong swimmer might slightly slow the speed at which he's rushing downstream briefly, but that's about it. If you hit a strainer, you'd better pray to god you hit it at an angle where the water doesn't just wash over your head.

    One thing I noticed is that the advice about floating on your back with feet pointed downstream is of limited utility. Yeah, it keeps your feet out of the snags, but your ability to steer or push toward the bank in fast current is extremely limited. I was shocked at how little I could move myself from side to side as I was rocketing downriver toward some really dangerous water.

    I finally hit a shallow stretch and I decided to take a risk - I put my feet down and dragged the bottom to slow myself down and then was able to push toward the shore with a headlong stroke. Clearly, if my foot had hit a snag I woulve been toast, but downriver there was a flooded island with a bunch of trees - a mega strainer of sorts. If I'd hit it I probably would have been toast anyway.

    All this theory is great on the Internet, but when you find yourself capsized and washing downstream, it's not as easy as it sounds.

    bd
  • nimrod wrote: »
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    ****, I look good.
  • Brian D.Brian D. Senior Member Posts: 4,011 Senior Member
    That fanny pack makes your butt look big.

    bd
  • ross.purnellross.purnell Administrator Posts: 4 Junior Member
    Steven,
    Wetsuits are tight and therefore cannot catch the force of the water and create a sail effect. Therefore, not a good analogy for waders. However, you've kind of shown how important it is to wear a tight wading belt. thanks!
  • ouzelproouzelpro Senior Member Posts: 5,361 Senior Member
    Ross; never correct Steven.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,863 Senior Member
    Er, why are you wading in a stream that small?
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • Steven,
    Wetsuits are tight and therefore cannot catch the force of the water and create a sail effect. Therefore, not a good analogy for waders. However, you've kind of shown how important it is to wear a tight wading belt. thanks!

    Growing up as a surfer in LA, I'll pretty much guarantee that when you wipe, your wetsuit fills with water.

    Once your waders are filled with water, what sail effect can occur? Two things cannot exist in the same space.

    I find it amazing that after months, this thread gets revisited.
  • George K wrote: »
    Er, why are you wading in a stream that small?

    A) Wisconsin has a feet wet rule;
    B) The best way in my opinion to fish these creeks is straight upstream;
    C) The fish aren't so spooky that it matters;
    D) I wade like a heron anyway.
    E) I agree with John Gierach that flyfishing is just a good excuse for standing in moving water.
  • nimrodnimrod Senior Member Posts: 756 Senior Member
    This thread is the new TKP...I personally will keep breathing life into it. Man, its a winner wonnerland up here today and that green spring creek in the limestoned thread sure is pretty against all the white I'm looking at.
  • nimrodnimrod Senior Member Posts: 756 Senior Member
    ...a little breath of fresh summertime air might help.

    Picture058.jpg
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    Always drink upstream of the herd.

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • nimrodnimrod Senior Member Posts: 756 Senior Member
    ...thanks for the tip, Mike. Or eat under the shade tree...

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