I would take this debate more seriously

sherbsherb Senior MemberPosts: 4,567 Senior Member

If any dem had cared about it prior to 2016.

Remember the blue wall?

Replies

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,020 Senior Member

    It also came up in 2001.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,020 Senior Member

    Here is the thing. The states that benefit from it will never ratify it.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • creekyguycreekyguy Posts: 361 Senior Member

    In as much as the system supports the two party structure (winner takes all in particular), the party hacks will always oppose reform, and it won't happen.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,567 Senior Member

    Or alternatively, we have this system for a good reason. Perhaps that reason has been lost to us, but before one tears a fence down, one ought to ascertain why the fence was erected in the first place.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,518 Senior Member

    How not to win an election. Make the people who handed you defeat in the last election, feel even less significant in the next election. Good work!

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,567 Senior Member

    If a democrat wins in 2020 this issue will once again go away.

    And honestly, dems should take a look at the 2020 electoral map. It doesn't look bad for them. At least right now. Once they all impode/self-destruct it may change, but still.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,208 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    Or alternatively, we have this system for a good reason. Perhaps that reason has been lost to us, but before one tears a fence down, one ought to ascertain why the fence was erected in the first place.

    The original intent was to prevent the complete dominance of large states over small states. Instead we occasionally find ourselves in a situation where smaller states decide the outcome at the expense of the majority of voters, as in 2016. Hayes, Harrison and George W. Bush also lost the popular vote but won in the Electoral College. Dubya was helped along by the hanging chad decision in the Supreme Court. He lost the popular vote by about half a million and won via five electoral votes.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,567 Senior Member

    Disagree. The primary rationale for the EC is that the framers distrusted direct democracy-and with good reason. As James Madison observed, "democracies have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

    the EC has many virtues. One among them, as you note, is that a sizable portion of the population doesn't want to be ruled by 3-4 megacities. Another is that it provides a mandate to the winner. It requires candidates to appeal to places they would rather not go, as Hillary Clinton learned the hard way.

    And Dubya didn't win because of a small state. He won because of Florida and its 25 electoral votes.

  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 1,076 Senior Member

    I was disappointed with the outcome of the 2000 and 2016 presidential elections. But the shoe could be on the other foot in a future election, so there is an element of “be careful what you ask for, you might get it” in the anti EC position. I support the EC in principle for the reasons Sherb articulated.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,518 Senior Member
    edited March 2019 #11

    Candidates Propose Changes To Fix Flaw In Constitution That Allows Republicans To Be Elected :)

    https://babylonbee.com/news/candidates-propose-changes-to-outdated-constitution-that-allows-republicans-to-be-elected

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,922 Senior Member

    I would be as irate as h-ll, if my state approved the Popular Vote Compact.

    Probably not constitutional, though.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,208 Senior Member

    I could have phrased it better. Trump lost the popular vote and won in the EC with the help of small states. GWB lost the popular vote but won in the EC by 5 votes with the help of a big state. Had Gore rather than Bush been gifted Florida's EC votes he would have won there by 45 votes.

    It's true that distrust of democracy was one reason for the EC, but the original Constitution never was meant to be a democratic document. Since only property-owning white males could vote, things like the EC, equal representation in the Senate (where Members were appointed by state legislatures, not elected) protected not just the propertied against the hoi poloi mob, but small states against the big state mob as well. For small and big you can more or less substitute agricultural/slave-owning and manufacturing/commercial.

    For an interesting take on this I recommend Gore Vidal's "Inventing a Nation", a telling of how the often feuding founders managed to come up with a constitutional government that has endured. He also has a few interesting takes on schemes gone awry, such as Madison and Adam's attempt to rig the EC in 1800. It backfired on them, putting arch rival Jefferson in the White House.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,567 Senior Member
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 7,027 Senior Member

    I was disappointed with the outcome of the 2000 and 2016 presidential elections. But the shoe could be on the other foot in a future election, so there is an element of “be careful what you ask for, you might get it” in the anti EC position. I support the EC in principle for the reasons Sherb articulated.


    i don’t know. There are more democrats than republicans. Given that geezer Republicans vote in large numbers, I would say the numbers are even more skewed than popular vote numbers show.

    However, I think Warren et. al. need to shut up. It’s a non-starter and a losing argument to boot. She does have some policy ideas that I strongly agree with but these hair-brained ideas (along with adding another 6 SCOTUS judges) would come back to haunt anyone in the general.

  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,418 Senior Member

    @Steven said:
    I would be as irate as h-ll, if my state approved the Popular Vote Compact.

    Probably not constitutional, though.

    CO did, and you're right. I am beyond pissed off about it. I escaped CA once and don't want to have to do it again

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,020 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    Or alternatively, we have this system for a good reason. Perhaps that reason has been lost to us, but before one tears a fence down, one ought to ascertain why the fence was erected in the first place.

    I don't think that the forefathers could have forseen the population disparities that the coasts and urban centers have created. I don't think it is fair that my vote in Utah has so much more value than my vote did in NYC. Although it has as much of an impact on the outcome. :D

    I don't want the electoral college eliminated. But an outcome where 3 million popular votes didn't matter is a problem.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,020 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    If a democrat wins in 2020 this issue will once again go away.

    And honestly, dems should take a look at the 2020 electoral map. It doesn't look bad for them. At least right now. Once they all impode/self-destruct it may change, but still.

    If a Republican loses the EC and wins the popular vote, it will not go away. I am disappointed that you think this is a partisan thing.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,020 Senior Member

    @He lost the popular vote by about half a million and won via five electoral votes.

    I don't find this a totally unacceptable outcome. I wasn't happy about. But 3 million votes is very significant.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan

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