A shameful anniversary

EdBEdB Senior MemberPosts: 2,843 Senior Member

This from the American Conservative website.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/15-years-in-iraq-a-shameful-anniversary/

At first glance, March 19, 2018 seems like just another day on the calendar. In fact, it’s anything but ordinary.

Today marks the 15th anniversary of the most disastrous U.S. foreign policy decision since President Lyndon Johnson’s 1965 escalation in Vietnam: the invasion of Iraq, a military campaign that ended up costing the United States trillions of dollars, killing more than 4,500 U.S. troops, and realigning the Middle East power structure to Iran’s advantage. Indeed, it is not an exaggeration to argue that the sectarianism, terrorism, and Iranian expansionism that defines today’s Middle East can be traced back to that fateful decision in March 2003.

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Replies

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,212 Senior Member

    Ed,

    I went fishing this past weekend and biked last night. Life is good.

  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,843 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:
    Ed,

    I went fishing this past weekend and biked last night. Life is good.

    Too bad the people in Iraq can't say the same.

  • creekyguycreekyguy Posts: 124 Senior Member

    Nor the needless G.I. casualties. But you can go fishing AND oppose American foreign policy arrogance all at the same time.

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,212 Senior Member
    edited March 21 #5

    Sitting around b!tching about it all the time on a fly fishing forum with about 12 viewing members seems rather pointless to me.

    There is nothing you, or I or Ed or anyone else can do to change what's going on in Iraq.

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 2,222 Senior Member

    We still have 985 years to figure this out.

  • creekyguycreekyguy Posts: 124 Senior Member
    edited March 21 #7

    @NZ Indicator said:
    Sitting around b!tching about it ....seems rather pointless to me.

    **As is bi-**** about the bi-****, I suppose. **

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,212 Senior Member

    Ha!!!

    Actually I agree with Ed that all facets of this situation suck. But I'm also a realist and realize there is nothing I can do about it. The U.S. isn't going to retreat from playing a major role on the world stage. It will maintain to prove military and economic superiority.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 2,115 Senior Member
    edited March 21 #9

    I agree with you Ed.

    The entire venture proved to be nothing more than needless Wilsonian adventurism. That said, there were things we could have done MUCH better, like a coherent and careful de-baathification process and a larger occupying force, that might have prevented a lot of needless bloodshed.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 2,115 Senior Member

    Did you guys know that the Lend-lease program almost didn't happen, because Congress was so pissed at the Brits for misleading us about who the belligerents were in WWI? All that stuff about the "Hun" was BS. In fact, the lend-lease program was officially named H.R 1776. I guess that could be a coincidence?

    But I doubt it.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 2,115 Senior Member

    Mind you, this was back when Congress did stuff.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 2,748 Senior Member

    Has anyone seen this movie. Kinda changed my way of thinking on the subject.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3748718/

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,580 Senior Member
    edited March 21 #13

    delete

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 2,748 Senior Member

    Forgot to add that Ride the Thunder the movie is on Netflix now. I think most of you guys would really enjoy it.

    I wish I would read the book first. It's hard for me to read the book after I've seen the movie. Last time I did it was Life of Pi. I LOVED the movie, but didn't enjoy the book nearly as much.

    https://www.amazon.com/Ride-Thunder-Vietnam-Story-Triumph/dp/193507105X

  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 658 Senior Member

    @EdB said:
    This from the American Conservative website.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/15-years-in-iraq-a-shameful-anniversary/

    At first glance, March 19, 2018 seems like just another day on the calendar. In fact, it’s anything but ordinary.

    Today marks the 15th anniversary of the most disastrous U.S. foreign policy decision since President Lyndon Johnson’s 1965 escalation in Vietnam: the invasion of Iraq, a military campaign that ended up costing the United States trillions of dollars, killing more than 4,500 U.S. troops, and realigning the Middle East power structure to Iran’s advantage. Indeed, it is not an exaggeration to argue that the sectarianism, terrorism, and Iranian expansionism that defines today’s Middle East can be traced back to that fateful decision in March 2003.

    Agreed

  • creekyguycreekyguy Posts: 124 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:
    Has anyone seen this movie. Kinda changed my way of thinking on the subject.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3748718/

    Not much info about it, but from what I could get it emphasizes the evil ways of the enemy and the courage of the ARVN soldiers and the tragedy of the take over when we left.
    Sounds like pretty much a neocon wet dream.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 2,748 Senior Member
    edited March 22 #17

    All I know is it was a different kind of film from what I'd seen before about the conflict. To me, a lot of the films I've seen made all the vietnamese from both sides seem somewhat unworthy and or ungrateful of our sacrifice. This film changed my thinking in that regard.
    I'm not qualified at all to to say anything beyond that. I'm always careful to comment on this because I know there are still those who served who hold strong opinions. They earned those opinions and I'd never be the guy to challenge them. I will say that Many of the Amazon Reviews from marines who claim they were there seem to give it big thumbs up.

    https://www.amazon.com/Ride-Thunder-Vietnam-Story-Triumph/product-reviews/193507105X/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_paging_btm_2?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&pageNumber=2

  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,536 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:
    Ha!!!

    Actually I agree with Ed that all facets of this situation suck. But I'm also a realist and realize there is nothing I can do about it. The U.S. isn't going to retreat from playing a major role on the world stage. It will maintain to prove military and economic superiority.

    4,500+ dead American soldiers = no big deal, I'm going mountain biking. But a gender neutral bathroom in Milwaukee and you're ready to take up arms against the government?

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 8,734 Senior Member

    There were worthy, brave and dedicated Vietnamese on both sides, but the high leadership of the side we backed was hopelessly incompetent and corrupt. Abandoning those who allied with us, from Embassy staff, to military employees, to the Hmong and many more was just a link in the chain of similar betrayals continuing to this day in Iraq and Afghanistan. How do you think our Syrian rebel and Kurdish allies will make out in a few year's time?

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,580 Senior Member

    Didn't we also promise them that at the end of WWII the Vietnamese would be independent from France for their help with the Japanese?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,212 Senior Member

    @Shawn C. said:

    @NZ Indicator said:
    Ha!!!

    Actually I agree with Ed that all facets of this situation suck. But I'm also a realist and realize there is nothing I can do about it. The U.S. isn't going to retreat from playing a major role on the world stage. It will maintain to prove military and economic superiority.

    4,500+ dead American soldiers = no big deal, I'm going mountain biking. But a gender neutral bathroom in Milwaukee and you're ready to take up arms against the government?

    Please point out to the classroom where I made such statements.

    You have some issues dude...

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 2,115 Senior Member
    edited March 22 #22

    @fishingcomic said:
    Didn't we also promise them that at the end of WWII the Vietnamese would be independent from France for their help with the Japanese?

    I don't know about this, but I do know that Ho Chi Minh was present when Woodrow Wilson promised self determination for all nations. Uncle Ho was actually a fan of the American revolution. . .until it became apparent that we had no actual inclination to force France to divest itself of Indochina.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 2,748 Senior Member

    @sherb said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    Didn't we also promise them that at the end of WWII the Vietnamese would be independent from France for their help with the Japanese?

    I don't know about this, but I do know that Ho Chi Minh was present when Woodrow Wilson promised self determination for all nations. Uncle Ho was actually a fan of the American revolution. . .until it became apparent that we had no actual inclination to force France to divest itself of Indochina.

    I think he also attended college in the US.

  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,536 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:

    @sherb said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    Didn't we also promise them that at the end of WWII the Vietnamese would be independent from France for their help with the Japanese?

    I don't know about this, but I do know that Ho Chi Minh was present when Woodrow Wilson promised self determination for all nations. Uncle Ho was actually a fan of the American revolution. . .until it became apparent that we had no actual inclination to force France to divest itself of Indochina.

    I think he also attended college in the US.

    Union College, I’m guessing?

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,580 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:

    @Shawn C. said:

    @NZ Indicator said:
    Ha!!!

    Actually I agree with Ed that all facets of this situation suck. But I'm also a realist and realize there is nothing I can do about it. The U.S. isn't going to retreat from playing a major role on the world stage. It will maintain to prove military and economic superiority.

    4,500+ dead American soldiers = no big deal, I'm going mountain biking. But a gender neutral bathroom in Milwaukee and you're ready to take up arms against the government?

    Please point out to the classroom where I made such statements.

    You have some issues dude...

    You're kidding right? You don't remember getting all bent about letting transgenders use the ladies room?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,580 Senior Member

    Sounds like PC is spilling over our northern border.
    I was down in Milwaukee a few weeks ago and stopped at a restaurant to eat. I went to use the bathroom and there were no mens or ladies room. There were 2 bathrooms and the signs on the door said "Whichever".
    What a crazy world this has become..

    Things that make you go hmmmmm

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • EchoTestEchoTest Posts: 480 Senior Member

    I don't think its the most disastrous foreign policy decision since Johnson's escalation of the Vietnam War because...well first think the US has made several foreign policy decisions that were far more disastrous and not surprisingly several of them were delaying taking action early enough and this the situation exponentially growing to far more disastrous proportions as a result....WWII obviously being one of them.

    But secondly....as with all things....time changes everything...and as world history goes...the outcome of 21st century US involvement in the middle east is actually way too early to call....but one thing for sure is that these things almost always play out far differently than just about everybody thought they would.

    I'm in the camp that's going to be saying 'We'll see' for a long time....and probably not live long enough to actually know how its going to finally play out.

    But one thing I do know...historically speaking....more often than not when nothing was done....it always ended up worse than when something was done!

  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,843 Senior Member

    The disastrous invasion and occupation of Iraq has resulted in the deaths of over one million civilians and the displacement of millions more. It can't get any worse for those people regardless of history.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 2,748 Senior Member

    @EchoTest said:
    I don't think its the most disastrous foreign policy decision since Johnson's escalation of the Vietnam War because...well first think the US has made several foreign policy decisions that were far more disastrous and not surprisingly several of them were delaying taking action early enough and this the situation exponentially growing to far more disastrous proportions as a result....WWII obviously being one of them.

    But secondly....as with all things....time changes everything...and as world history goes...the outcome of 21st century US involvement in the middle east is actually way too early to call....but one thing for sure is that these things almost always play out far differently than just about everybody thought they would.

    I'm in the camp that's going to be saying 'We'll see' for a long time....and probably not live long enough to actually know how its going to finally play out.

    But one thing I do know...historically speaking....more often than not when nothing was done....it always ended up worse than when something was done!

    Well many of these do nothing folks sure are ready to do something about Russia! You would think Russia bombed Pear Harbor again listening to some of the news lately.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,580 Senior Member
    edited March 23 #30

    No they just murdered yet another man on an ally's soil and violated our election laws. But because it resulted in the election of Trump and since Trump and Fox News has a big man crush on Putin's pecs, that is okay with you.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 2,115 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:

    Well many of these do nothing folks sure are ready to do something about Russia! You would think** Russia bombed Pear Harbor again** listening to some of the news lately.

    Again?

    Those commie sonsabitches.

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