So,,, was this Murder?

MikeAMikeA Senior MemberPosts: 4,536 Senior Member
Watch the video. First cop fires beanbag round (unnecessarily IMO). Second cop hears shot (not knowing it was a bean bag) and starts firing, killing the perp. He's been (wrongly IMO) convicted of second degree murder. What say you?

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c24_1512513064

Replies

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,029 Senior Member
    So wait when one cop shoots, it is okay for a second shot to kill someone? What is the logic behind shooting someone to stop them from killing themselves?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,536 Senior Member
    So wait when one cop shoots, it is okay for a second shot to kill someone? What is the logic behind shooting someone to stop them from killing themselves?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_shooting
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,029 Senior Member
    Doesn't make it okay.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    I haven't watched the video, but based on the description I would say it was probably not murder, as there was no intent, but negligent homicide or manslaughter.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,029 Senior Member
    Kind of hard to say there was no intent, while shouting, I'm gonna shoot you.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    Kind of hard to say there was no intent, while shouting, I'm gonna shoot you.
    Intent to shoot/stop, or intent to kill. I always thought murder was defined by an intent to kill and some level of premeditation.

    Not trying to excuse what happened, just pointing out that the police officer's probably not going to get charged with murder.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,029 Senior Member
    How do you shoot someone and not kill them with any certainty?

    He was convicted.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,536 Senior Member
    Intent to shoot/stop, or intent to kill. I always thought murder was defined by an intent to kill and some level of premeditation.

    Not trying to excuse what happened, just pointing out that the police officer's probably not going to get charged with murder.
    He has already been charged with second degree murder.
  • tim_stim_s Senior Member Posts: 2,029 Senior Member
    Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
    Fly Fishing in Maine - www.flyfishinginmaine.com
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    So was he charged or convicted? This is where more than just a video would be helpful. Maybe a news story for context?

    http://kfor.com/2017/12/05/oklahoma-city-police-sergeant-arrested-for-second-degree-murder/

    Again, I'm not sure they're going to make the murder charge stick. I'm not sure they the prosecution is going to be able to show that he had intent. Bad judgement, yes, but intent to kill? Not so sure about that. Unless of course they have other info we're not yet privy to.

    That being said, I do think what the guy did was criminal, and deserving of jail time.

    Edited to add: just watched the video. Again: he should be up on charges. No doubt. But I think he threw his fellow officer under the bus when he said "I didn't know you had a bean bag." I'd imagine that they didn't use tasers because they might have set the gasoline/lighter fluid on fire.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,536 Senior Member
    So was he charged or convicted? This is where more than just a video would be helpful. Maybe a news story for context?

    http://kfor.com/2017/12/05/oklahoma-city-police-sergeant-arrested-for-second-degree-murder/

    Again, I'm not sure they're going to make the murder charge stick. I'm not sure they the prosecution is going to be able to show that he had intent. Bad judgement, yes, but intent to kill? Not so sure about that. Unless of course they have other info we're not yet privy to.

    That being said, I do think what the guy did was criminal, and deserving of jail time.

    Edited to add: just watched the video. Again: he should be up on charges. No doubt. But I think he threw his fellow officer under the bus when he said "I didn't know you had a bean bag." I'd imagine that they didn't use tasers because they might have set the gasoline/lighter fluid on fire.

    I agree he should be charged, just not with second degree murder.
  • tim_stim_s Senior Member Posts: 2,029 Senior Member
    can't watch the video, but i am guessing he meets this criteria: 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
    Fly Fishing in Maine - www.flyfishinginmaine.com
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    tim_s wrote: »
    can't watch the video, but i am guessing he meets this criteria: 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
    I'm just saying I'm not sure the officer showed a lack of concern for human life. I think he said he thought he saw a knife, which gives him some level of wiggle room. I would think it could be rather easily argued he was showing dangerous conduct.
  • tim_stim_s Senior Member Posts: 2,029 Senior Member
    I'm just saying I'm not sure the officer showed a lack of concern for human life. I think he said he thought he saw a knife, which gives him some level of wiggle room. I would think it could be rather easily argued he was showing dangerous conduct.


    they must either think that's the case they can make or hope for a plea down to manslaughter
    Fly Fishing in Maine - www.flyfishinginmaine.com
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    tim_s wrote: »
    they must either think that's the case they can make or hope for a plea down to manslaughter
    I'm sure, I mean it's not like they'd charge someone for something they can't prove, right? But yeah, I also think a plea deal for manslaughter is gonna be offered.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,536 Senior Member
    This one is a little harder to watch. Looks like murder by cop to me.
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

    BTW, Where's all the activists on these two? {circkets}
  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 1,663 Senior Member
    MikeA wrote: »
    This one is a little harder to watch. Looks like murder by cop to me.
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

    BTW, Where's all the activists on these two? {circkets}

    He was told three times that if he reached behind his back he'd be shot. He shouldn't have reached behind his back.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,029 Senior Member
    Why did they have him crawl to them? Just lay down.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,536 Senior Member
    Why did they have him crawl to them? Just lay down.
    That officer was on a major power trip, just like many of the others are. I tend to side with police. However, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I helped keep this guy on the streets armed with an AR.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,536 Senior Member
    CO Native wrote: »
    He was told three times that if he reached behind his back he'd be shot. He shouldn't have reached behind his back.

    Sorry I disagree. The guy was doing everything he could to obey the officer's game of Simon says. His pants were probably being pulled down due to being forced to crawl. He tried to pull them up and remembered he wasn't supposed to do that, too late.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member
    Why did they have him crawl to them? Just lay down.

    He had to clear the room they came out of. Never know if there was a guy with a gun in there, so telling them to crawl to them was SOP. The full video shows the cop, right after shooting the guy, going to the door and peeking to check if it was occupied.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member
    CO Native wrote: »
    He was told three times that if he reached behind his back he'd be shot. He shouldn't have reached behind his back.

    He was drunk. He was scared. And his shorts were falling down. He reached back there once before. It's instinct to pull your pants up when you stand up, and he never thought a thing about it. Can't fault a drunk, terrified guy for pulling up his pants.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 7,027 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Can't fault a drunk, terrified guy for pulling up his pants.

    We've all been there, right?
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,029 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    He had to clear the room they came out of. Never know if there was a guy with a gun in there, so telling them to crawl to them was SOP. The full video shows the cop, right after shooting the guy, going to the door and peeking to check if it was occupied.

    That makes sense. I have however seen them put their hands on their heads and walk backwards. Unfortunately I think the officer has a credible argument for being in fear for his life, being it was a shooting call. I do think there needs to be a trial.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,029 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    We've all been there, right?

    At my age I do not have to be drunk.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,171 Senior Member
    MikeA wrote: »
    Sorry I disagree. The guy was doing everything he could to obey the officer's game of Simon says. His pants were probably being pulled down due to being forced to crawl. He tried to pull them up and remembered he wasn't supposed to do that, too late.

    I agree. Grabbing at sagging pants is done without thought all the time. In a stressful situation, why would the guy have the presence of mind to not grab at them?
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.

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