Civilian deaths

EdBEdB Senior MemberPosts: 2,926 Senior Member
One out of five airstrikes in the M.E. kill civilians according to this report, refuting the gov't claim that very few are killed. This number is 31 times the number reported by the coalition.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/16/magazine/uncounted-civilian-casualties-iraq-airstrikes.html

Our own reporting, conducted over 18 months, shows that the air war has been significantly less precise than the coalition claims. Between April 2016 and June 2017, we visited the sites of nearly 150 airstrikes across northern Iraq, not long after ISIS was evicted from them. We toured the wreckage; we interviewed hundreds of witnesses, survivors, family members, intelligence informants and local officials; we photographed bomb fragments, scoured local news sources, identified ISIS targets in the vicinity and mapped the destruction through satellite imagery. We also visited the American air base in Qatar where the coalition directs the air campaign. There, we were given access to the main operations floor and interviewed senior commanders, intelligence officials, legal advisers and civilian-casualty assessment experts. We provided their analysts with the coordinates and date ranges of every airstrike — 103 in all — in three ISIS-controlled areas and examined their responses. The result is the first systematic, ground-based sample of airstrikes in Iraq since this latest military action began in 2014.

We found that one in five of the coalition strikes we identified resulted in civilian death, a rate more than 31 times that acknowledged by the coalition. It is at such a distance from official claims that, in terms of civilian deaths, this may be the least transparent war in recent American history.

Replies

  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 963 Senior Member
    I'm not saying that killing civilians in 1 out every 5 airstrikes is a good thing, but in my mind the fact that 4 out of 5 airstrikes do not kill civilians is pretty good. I would have thought it would happen in most if not all of the airstrikes.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,575 Senior Member
    and 5 out of 5 kill terrorists
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    I'm not saying that killing civilians in 1 out every 5 airstrikes is a good thing, but in my mind the fact that 4 out of 5 airstrikes do not kill civilians is pretty good. I would have thought it would happen in most if not all of the airstrikes.


    So 20 percent of the people we kill being innocent civilians is okay?
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 2,946 Senior Member
    War is hell Ed.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    War is hell Ed.

    Yes it is, that's why the U.S. should not be starting wars illegally as we have in the M.E.

    Anybody watch Shadow World on PBS Independent Lens last night? It's an eye opener.
  • swizzswizz Senior Member Posts: 2,559 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »

    Anybody watch Shadow World on PBS Independent Lens last night? It's an eye opener.
    Hosted by Charlie Rose?
    All of your Trout are belong to me.
  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 963 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    So 20 percent of the people we kill being innocent civilians is okay?

    That is not what the article you posted says. It says 20% of the airstrikes caused civilian casualties. It is possible that a given air strike killed say, one civilian, and 20 ISIS militants.

    In fairness I do know that there was an airstrike connected with re-taking Mosul from ISIS that caused a lot of civilian casualties. Very unfortunate, but I guess the question is whether Mosul should have been left in the hands of ISIS instead. Before answering that question you should read and listen about what ISIS did in Mosul while it held the city.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/survivors-recount-atrocities-isis-occupation-mosul

    https://www.memri.org/tv/viewer-discretion-advised-isis-atrocities-mosul

    http://www.nrttv.com/EN/Details.aspx?Jimare=13568
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,773 Senior Member
    How many civilians did the targeted bad guys kill prior to being killed, and how many more would they have killed if we didn't kill them (bad guys) first?
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    That is not what the article you posted says. It says 20% of the airstrikes caused civilian casualties. It is possible that a given air strike killed say, one civilian, and 20 ISIS militants.

    In fairness I do know that there was an airstrike connected with re-taking Mosul from ISIS that caused a lot of civilian casualties. Very unfortunate, but I guess the question is whether Mosul should have been left in the hands of ISIS instead. Before answering that question you should read and listen about what ISIS did in Mosul while it held the city.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/survivors-recount-atrocities-isis-occupation-mosul

    https://www.memri.org/tv/viewer-discretion-advised-isis-atrocities-mosul

    http://www.nrttv.com/EN/Details.aspx?Jimare=13568


    The U.S. caused ISIS, they are blowback from our illegal invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and other countries in the region, killing uncounted numbers of innocent people in the process. The way to stop the carnage is for the U.S. to withdraw our troops and bases from the region.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,988 Senior Member
    Ed,

    That won't happen until we switch to an energy based system of barter.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    Unfortunately, you are probably correct.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,988 Senior Member
    Sarcasm escapes you...
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    No, sarcasm escapes you.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,773 Senior Member
    Nothing escapes the slaughterbot.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,736 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    The U.S. caused ISIS, they are blowback from our illegal invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and other countries in the region, killing uncounted numbers of innocent people in the process. The way to stop the carnage is for the U.S. to withdraw our troops and bases from the region.

    Its all Reagan's fault for arming the mujahideen.

    But yeah, unintended consequences are rarely pleasant.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,773 Senior Member
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,736 Senior Member
    It was a joke, Mike.

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