Honest question

Clark SalmoClark Salmo MemberPosts: 46 Member
Why the uproar over Confederate monuments? I don't see where racism is involved, the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about State's rights.
Help me understand.
Clark
«1345

Replies

  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 1,553 Senior Member
    People are complete morons is why. My family isn't from the north or the south, they moved to Colorado from Germany in 1890 so I don't really have a dog in this fight. I find ALL of the old statues from that era interesting and part of our past/history that should be remembered.
    In my opinion it's equal to tearing down the Colosseum in Rome.
  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 1,072 Senior Member
    Why the uproar over Confederate monuments? I don't see where racism is involved, the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about State's rights.
    Help me understand.
    Clark

    The short answer is because the Civil War was about states' rights to have a system of laws that allowed slavery. Stated differently, it was not about the right of a state to have, say, different gauge railroad tracks. Instead, the issue was fundamentally about slavery.

    The slightly longer answer is that in the years leading up to the Civil War abolitionists clamored about the immorality of slavery. Many in the South didn't like that, as reflected by the fact that US Rep. Preston Brooks of So. Carolina entered the US Senate Chamber and vicously beat US Senator Charles of Massachusetts with a metal tipped cane due to a speech Sumner made that disparaged slavery.

    https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/The_Caning_of_Senator_Charles_Sumner.htm

    Relatedly, there had been a long running dispute about whether slavery would be allowed in newly admitted western states. Beginning with the Missouri Compromise in 1820 the issue had been patched over with a series of deals, but the issue came to a head with the admission of Kansas as a free state, which prompted a vicious civil war in that state.

    Abe Lincoln gets elected in 1860. That freaked out the slave states, even though Lincoln was not a rabid abolitionist. In fact, he did all he could to keep the Union together. But, the southerners felt threatened, and fired upon Fort Sumter. The war started. Originally the North did not expressly and officially fight to abolish slavery, but instead to preserve the Union. However, slavery was the fundamental issue underlying the whole matter, and with the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 the North put the fundamental issue on the table and officially stated it was fighting to not only save the Union but also to abolish slavery.

    Edited to add: Both my great great Grandfather and his brother served in the Union Army during the Civil War. The brother died in combat in the Battle of Averasborough in March 1865, shortly before the end of the war.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,556 Senior Member
    Well done by GMB.
    No slavery, no argument about a state's right to secede.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,094 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Well done by GMB.
    No slavery, no argument about a state's right to secede.
    I agree with you both 100%. However, tearing down monuments to fight racial injustice is like ripping a scab off a wound to prevent an infection.
  • Clark SalmoClark Salmo Member Posts: 46 Member
    The short answer is because the Civil War was about states' rights to have a system of laws that allowed slavery. Stated differently, it was not about the right of a state to have, say, different gauge railroad tracks. Instead, the issue was fundamentally about slavery.

    The slightly longer answer is that in the years leading up to the Civil War abolitionists clamored about the immorality of slavery. Many in the South didn't like that, as reflected by the fact that US Rep. Preston Brooks of So. Carolina entered the US Senate Chamber and vicously beat US Senator Charles of Massachusetts with a metal tipped cane due to a speech Sumner made that disparaged slavery.

    https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/The_Caning_of_Senator_Charles_Sumner.htm

    Relatedly, there had been a long running dispute about whether slavery would be allowed in newly admitted western states. Beginning with the Missouri Compromise in 1820 the issue had been patched over with a series of deals, but the issue came to a head with the admission of Kansas as a free state, which prompted a vicious civil war in that state.

    Abe Lincoln gets elected in 1860. That freaked out the slave states, even though Lincoln was not a rabid abolitionist. In fact, he did all he could to keep the Union together. But, the southerners felt threatened, and fired upon Fort Sumter. The war started. Originally the North did not expressly and officially fight to abolish slavery, but instead to preserve the Union. However, slavery was the fundamental issue underlying the whole matter, and with the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 the North put the fundamental issue on the table and officially stated it was fighting to not only save the Union but also to abolish slavery.

    Edited to add: Both my great great Grandfather and his brother served in the Union Army during the Civil War. The brother died in combat in the Battle of Averasborough in March 1865, shortly before the end of the war.

    Thanks for the info.
    Clark
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,002 Senior Member
    Gettysburg battlefield, less than 15 miles from my house, has dozens of monuments and statues honoring both Union and Confederate units and war dead. No one is clamoring for removing the Confederate ones because people understand the context. The statues and monuments in current dispute have become symbols of racism and white supremacy. Not all were erected as such, although many were in more recent times - say after the period in the late 19th and early 20th centuries when CSA veterans were dying off in large numbers. If you do just a little research into when and why they were put up this becomes obvious.

    I should add that magnanimity has it's limits. No rebel dead are allowed to be buried in Gettysburg National Cemetery, or any other one as far as I know.

    GMB's summary is excellent, btw.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,556 Senior Member
    Originally posted by Mike A.,

    "I agree with you both 100%. However, tearing down monuments to fight racial injustice is like ripping a scab off a wound to prevent an infection."



    Nah. A lot of these monuments were built long after the Civil War, many in the 1960s or later. This isn't the Liberty Bell we're talking about here.

    If we went to a small German town and saw a memorial to a Waffen SS commander from the area, wouldn't we all be appalled? The guy might have been brave as hell, a great commander and warrior, but what he fought for was so bad, we'd all be in shock.

    There's little difference from honoring Confederate dead in my opinion.
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,053 Senior Member
    Slavery was one of those state's rights. Read the declarations of succession by some of the southern states. Georgia revered to "non-slave-holding States." It also referred to the new Republican party as an anti-slavery party.

    Texas apparently thought slavery was part of God's will. "...based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."

    https://www.civilwar.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,096 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »


    If we went to a small German town and saw a memorial to a Waffen SS commander from the area, wouldn't we all be appalled? The guy might have been brave as hell, a great commander and warrior, but what he fought for was so bad, we'd all be in shock.

    There's little difference from honoring Confederate dead in my opinion.

    In fact, IIRC, one of the more controversial decisions St. Ronnie made during his eight (8) year tenure was to visit an SS cemetery. He was roundly criticized for it. I don't remember how that was resolved.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,096 Senior Member
    FishTX wrote: »

    Texas apparently thought slavery was part of God's will. "...based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law."

    The South had constructed an entire intellectual edifice around the continuing vitality of slavery. Its really jarring to read now.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,556 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    In fact, IIRC, one of the more controversial decisions St. Ronnie made during his eight (8) year tenure was to visit an SS cemetery. He was roundly criticized for it. I don't remember how that was resolved.

    Well, that's not exactly right. It was a German military cemetery with some SS buried in it.

    It wasn't really resolved. At the end of the day, in retrospect, Reagan said he didn't realize how many old wounds it would open and regretted going.
  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 1,072 Senior Member
    I have mixed feelings about the statutes of Confederate leaders. I get that the Civil War was traumatic for the south and there was a lot of sacrifices. It is the same for New England states--the Vermont Brigade suffered enormous casualties in the Battle of Wildnerness and a number of small towns lost pretty much their entire populations of young men in just that one battle. Pretty much every village green in the state has a Civil War monument or statute. People wanted to honor the sacrifices and leave a legacy for future generations. On the other hand, to black folks the Confederacy was evil because, like I said earlier, the fight was really about slavery and the south was fighting to uphold it.

    It is like how the Chinese and Koreans get extremely upset if the Japanese do anything to cast a positive light on the Japanese soldiers and sailors who fought and died in WW2.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,094 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »

    There's little difference from honoring Confederate dead in my opinion.
    And I can't argue against that. I agree. But not everyone in the south feels this way. And while I'm sure the attitude is "well get over it".... Many here won't. And imo the damage done by a stupid monument (that would eventually be removed anyway) is less than the potential damage that could result from trying to forcefully remove them. But maybe, hopefully, the south has accepted that this is the right thing to do and can move on.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,246 Senior Member
    Why the uproar over Confederate monuments? I don't see where racism is involved, the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about State's rights.
    Help me understand.
    Clark

    Except it was all about slavery.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,246 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Originally posted by Mike A.,

    "I agree with you both 100%. However, tearing down monuments to fight racial injustice is like ripping a scab off a wound to prevent an infection."



    Nah. A lot of these monuments were built long after the Civil War, many in the 1960s or later. This isn't the Liberty Bell we're talking about here.

    If we went to a small German town and saw a memorial to a Waffen SS commander from the area, wouldn't we all be appalled? The guy might have been brave as hell, a great commander and warrior, but what he fought for was so bad, we'd all be in shock.

    There's little difference from honoring Confederate dead in my opinion.

    This ^^^^^
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,246 Senior Member
    confederate-flag-design.jpg
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 7,018 Senior Member
    This ^^^^^

    Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, “Steven and Comic have reached an agreement!”
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,164 Senior Member
    It's kind of hard for society to move forward when so many people keep living in the past.

    Just sayin'

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,777 Senior Member
    Not in response to NZ Indicator, just coincidental....


    Irony: People waving Confederate flags, complaining about the North's treatment of the South and the South losing the Civil War yet at the same time telling black folks they need to "get over" slavery....
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,246 Senior Member
    It's kind of hard for society to move forward when so many people keep living in the past.

    Just sayin'

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

    Who is living in the past?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,002 Senior Member
    Not in response to NZ Indicator, just coincidental....


    Irony: People waving Confederate flags, complaining about the North's treatment of the South and the South losing the Civil War yet at the same time telling black folks they need to "get over" slavery....

    Simple explanation - We are not a fully rational species.

    My favorite example is a likeable and very intelligent young man with whom I worked once back in the 1980s. He was rabidly pro-IRA/Brits-out of northern Ireland, even though the Ulster Plantation of English and Scottish settlers into Ireland had occurred almost 400 years previously. He also was furious that an American Indian tribe was attempting to reclaim it's ancestral land that had been stolen by white settlers less than 300 years previously, land along Connecticut's "Irish Riviera" where his family had a beach house. He was unable - or at a deep level, unwilling - to see any similarity between the two situations.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,096 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    Simple explanation - We are not a fully rational species.

    That's the reason we periodically have to deal with these tribal outbursts. ****, defeated on the battlefield but not in the hearts of men, lies dormant for a while, but its always waiting in the wings, biding its time for its glorious return. And for political leadership that enables and legitimizes it.

    You know why the statues in Charlottesville have to come down? Because **** don't want them to come down. And every minute they exist they serve as a rallying cry for fascist thugs.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,777 Senior Member
    Oh, I know we're an irrational species.

    I think that the rise of hate groups and Naziism shows also the futility in "fighting" an ideology. Ideologies are not defeated on the physical battlefield.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,164 Senior Member
    Who is living in the past?

    Those who demand that confederate era monuments be taken down.

    No one cared for many years but now they all of sudden do? Just another case of PC gone wild again and people living in the past.

    Do we keep burying history just because someone might be offended in this day and age?



    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,096 Senior Member
    Interesting graph:

    DHXYfHPV0AAZAA0.jpg:large

    A plausible case could be made that these monuments were built not as civil war monuments per se, but to prop up the edifice of Jim Crow.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,573 Senior Member
    As soon as these heathens show up to deface Stone Mountain, I'll be there with my percussion cap rifle.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,002 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Interesting graph:

    DHXYfHPV0AAZAA0.jpg:large

    A plausible case could be made that these monuments were built not as civil war monuments per se, but to prop up the edifice of Jim Crow.

    More than plausible. This is what I and others wrote about above. Thanks for finding and posting the graph, and for explaining in a sentence why the statues should come down without referencing the Civil war or slavery.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,002 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    As soon as these heathens show up to deface Stone Mountain, I'll be there with my percussion cap rifle.

    I sent the coordinates to Kim Jong Un.

    You're welcome. :)
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,573 Senior Member
    Please. He's doing good just to get his missiles to reach the ocean.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,096 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    I sent the coordinates to Kim Jong Un.

    You're welcome. :)

    Oh, that's the best laugh I've had in a while. thanks George.

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