Iran Nucular Deal

Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior MemberPosts: 6,813 Senior Member
Yeah, I spelled it wrong so our resident rightwads would get a nostalgic chubby for "W."

Anyway, what does everyone think of this temporary deal that has been struck?

I think it is interesting and who knows, it may even work and be a nice stepping stone towards improved relations. If it doesn't work, then we can re-enact the sanctions. I hope one of the main negotiating points, in addition to uranium enrichment, is Iran's terrorism funding. I see Hezbollah as a greater threat to regional peace and security than a nuclear weapon that probably doesn't even have a viable delivery system.

Anywho, I'd appreciate your opinions!

Replies

  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    The situation we've had over the last 10 years was going nowhere but downhill so this deal is a good one IF IT WORKS and is verifiable. Getting concessions without a Cheney/Rumsfeld invasion is a good thing. If it doesn't work we go back to the sanctions.

    The rightwing is comparing this to Munich....good god.. Nixon went to China.....Reagan went to Russia, Begin went to Egypt. All made deals with the enemy.....None were accused of going to Munich.

    Just read this:
    Americans back Iran deal by 2-to-1 margin: Reuters/Ipsos poll

    Americans back last weekend's nuclear deal with Iran by a 2-to-1 margin and are very wary of the United States resorting to military action against Tehran even if the historic diplomatic effort falls through, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed on Tuesday. The findings were rare good news in the polls for President Barack Obama, whose approval ratings have dropped in recent weeks because of the botched rollout of his signature healthcare reform law. According to the Reuters/Ipsos survey, 44 percent of Americans support the interim deal reached between Iran and six world powers in Geneva, and 22 percent oppose it. Even if the Iran deal fails, 49 percent want the United States to increase sanctions and 31 percent think it should launch further diplomacy.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,204 Senior Member
    I for one love it...because I hope the Israelis and the Saudis go take care of the problem since we wont
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    I for one love it...because I hope the Israelis and the Saudis go take care of the problem since we wont

    Sure they will. Any day now.

    Just what do you imagine "taking care of the problem" might be. Bombing impregnable sites, bombing cities? There isn't any taking care of the problem without an all out war.....god knows conservatives just love them.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    well, the practical matter is: the technology, once worked out, is not that complicated. So even if we wiped out their capacity to make weapons grade Uranium, we'd set them back at most a year or two - the real advances are so institutionalized by now that our BEST hope is simply to keep them a short distance from a weapon -- we can never put it out of their reach.

    That being the case, a negotiated deal seems to me to be more logical than military action and/or sanctions.
  • well, the practical matter is: the technology, once worked out, is not that complicated. So even if we wiped out their capacity to make weapons grade Uranium, we'd set them back at most a year or two - the real advances are so institutionalized by now that our BEST hope is simply to keep them a short distance from a weapon -- we can never put it out of their reach.

    That being the case, a negotiated deal seems to me to be more logical than military action and/or sanctions.

    The goal has always been to dismantle Iran's capability. This deal falls for short of the goal.
    Supposedly, a new deal is to be struck in 6 months with Iran agreeing to dismantle. Does anybody really think that's going to happen?
    And when the Iranians refuse, does anybody think the world is just going to "dial those sanctions right back up?"

    This deal gives the Iranians a little breathing room for little in return. We'll know more in 6 months, but I'd bet this is going to be a fail.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,927 Senior Member
    I know of no evidence that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. If you have that evidence, please inform us. I'm talking about evidence other than Bibi saying for the last twenty years that they will have nuclear weapons in six months.
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    I know of no evidence that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. If you have that evidence, please inform us. I'm talking about evidence other than Bibi saying for the last twenty years that they will have nuclear weapons in six months.

    Ed, you're just being naive or purposely blind. No one builds mountain sites with 100000 centrifuges simply to give the world the illusion they are making nuclear bombs. I'd bet you a dollar to a donut that without the world wide sanctions Iran would have an arsenal of bombs today. And why not?? Israel has the bomb, also Pakistan, India, China, N.Korea, France, the UK, etc, etc. The evidence is pretty clear, Iran was well on it's way to building a bomb.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,023 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    I know of no evidence that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. If you have that evidence, please inform us. I'm talking about evidence other than Bibi saying for the last twenty years that they will have nuclear weapons in six months.

    What do you say to sending in some drones to spy on them so we can find out for sure?
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    Iran is going to get the bomb.. The have the money and resources to accomplish this and most importantly, they feel it is necessary for their national security. How other nations respond to this is the question.

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • EdB wrote: »
    I know of no evidence that Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons. If you have that evidence, please inform us. I'm talking about evidence other than Bibi saying for the last twenty years that they will have nuclear weapons in six months.

    As somebody once said, India was a screwdriver away from having the bomb for years and years. The question isn't whether Iran is trying to build nuclear weapons, but whether Iran is trying to get to break out capacity.

    So where's the evidence?
    1) Uranium enriched to 20% for one thing. 20% enrichment is more than needed for energy (3.5%) but really not that far a stretch from the 90% necessary for nuclear weapons. Why does Iran need stockpiles of uranium at 20% enrichment?
    2) Arak: Why does the moderator use heavy water? A moderator using water is sufficient for energy purposes. The use of heavy water means Arak is capable of producing plutonium.
    3) U.N. report on warheads. In 2010, the U.N. IAEA declared there was proof that Iran had been and was currently working on building a nuclear warhead.

    Iran has gone far beyond what is needed for a peaceful energy program. Maybe they want to make a bomb...maybe they want to just be seen as being able to make a bomb. The Iranian Revolutionary Guard is an exporter of terrorism. Should the mullahs be trusted with even break out capabilities? If I'm the Saudis or Israelis, I sure as hell wouldn't want to leave it up to trust.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,927 Senior Member
    Why would Iran commit suicide by attacking another country with a nuclear bomb? They would be immediately obliterated and they know it.
  • bakerloobakerloo Banned Posts: 980 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    Why would Iran commit suicide by attacking another country with a nuclear bomb? They would be immediately obliterated and they know it.

    mar·tyr


    /ˈmärtər/


    noun

    noun: martyr; plural noun: martyrs



    1.



    a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.

    "saints, martyrs, and witnesses to the faith"




    a person who displays or exaggerates their discomfort or distress in order to obtain sympathy or admiration.

    "she wanted to play the martyr"




    a constant sufferer from (an ailment).

    "I'm a martyr to migraines!"




    verb

    verb: martyr; 3rd person present: martyrs; past tense: martyred; past participle: martyred; gerund or present participle: martyring



    1.



    kill (someone) because of their beliefs.

    "she was martyred for her faith"
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory."
    Aldo Leopold
  • tim_stim_s Senior Member Posts: 1,952 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    Why would Iran commit suicide by attacking another country with a nuclear bomb? They would be immediately obliterated and they know it.

    because they believe fervently in the afterlife? they believe the world will end in fire, and they'll get their reward?
    Fly Fishing in Maine - www.flyfishinginmaine.com
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,927 Senior Member
    tim_s wrote: »
    because they believe fervently in the afterlife? they believe the world will end in fire, and they'll get their reward?

    That's exactly what Christians believe.
  • tim_stim_s Senior Member Posts: 1,952 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    That's exactly what Christians believe.

    not really - modern mainstream christians don't believe in martyrdom guaranteeing their place in the afterlife

    but nice try....you were almost cogent there for a change
    Fly Fishing in Maine - www.flyfishinginmaine.com
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    The Mullahs like to send others to their death, themselves- not so much..

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • EdB wrote: »
    Why would Iran commit suicide by attacking another country with a nuclear bomb? They would be immediately obliterated and they know it.

    Crazy is as crazy does?

    The sanctions have been crippling, yet the mullahs (who supposedly just want a nuclear energy program) have refused to take the steps necessary to give everybody assurances. Crazy is as crazy does.

    Saddam Hussein has no WMD, but kicks the IAEA inspectors out, to make it look like he has WMD? Crazy is as crazy does.

    Hamas militants cross over into Israeli and kidnap a soldier, knowing full well that Israel will rain hell down on their people. Crazy is as crazy does.

    These people aren't like you and me, our logic may not hold.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,927 Senior Member
    Here's crazy is as crazy does. Bush invaded the middle east to bring on Armageddon. The Lord told him to do it.

    http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=5951.0


    Quote

    "This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins".
  • If you really believe that W invaded Iraq because the G-d told him to do it, then you should be the most afraid of the mullahs.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,927 Senior Member
    Did God tell the Mullahs to invade the U.S?
  • I haven't asked Him.
    Does G-d tell the Mullahs to stone women?
    Did G-d tell the Mulllahs to help Bashar Assad repress the Syrian people?
    Did G-d tell Khameini that Israel is a cancerious tumor that should be cut out and will be cut out?

    This list can go on and on. That you think W was whacked, doesn't mean that these guys aren't.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,927 Senior Member
    There are crazies on both sides, none more so than the crazies in the U.S. who want to control the world's resources for their own benefit at the expense of the people who live in the countries where those resources are. and are willing to kill millions of innocents to satisfy their greed. Some try to justify their crazy actions by invoking religion, others by invoking American exceptionalism. The pope says a new tyranny exists except that it's not new.
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    The Mullahs in Iran seem to live a nice life, mansions and servants and all. I don't think they are planning on an armageddon and they may be a bit unsure about the Virgins and all (probably have all they want now). What they want is power. The same thing Saddam wanted when he acted like he had nukes when he didn't. They hate the Saudi's among others and love intimidating them with the thought of a nuke attack.

    I think they are copying the N. Korea playbook (or is it the other way around?). Act as crazy and committed as possible and the West will buy you off, meanwhile your Gulf enemies will cower. The Western powers policy is correct I think: make it as costly and politically difficult for the regime to continue it program, and eventually they will remember that actually using their weapon is a death sentence.

    Are these Arab cultures capable of change? Maybe not, but the Arab Spring was real. If we think the Iranians are as crazy as they act, then this deal is a bad mistake, as Bibi says. I don't think they are though. Iran has a corrupt regime, and a history of bluffing (have they closed the Straights yet? Didn't they promise us that?).

    They also have a dead economy, lots of young unemployed citizens, and a relic merchant class crying for relief. I remember when the Soviet Union was depicted as an implacable enemy who would never relent in their quest to destroy us. Red China was depicted the same way. World-wide Communism was in cahoots with Satan. All that turned out to be wrong. They turned out to be human after all.

    There are those who say the Neocon agenda is to invade Iran. I don't think the public will support that after all we have been through. Without an invasion, this approach is the logical one.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    Nice synopsis...

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,204 Senior Member
    dryflie wrote: »
    Sure they will. Any day now.

    Just what do you imagine "taking care of the problem" might be. Bombing impregnable sites, bombing cities? There isn't any taking care of the problem without an all out war.....god knows conservatives just love them.

    Will they...probably not, but like I said I hope they do. Will it stop Iran from getting the bomb eventually, of course not.

    Are their sites impregnable? I am guessing some probably are, but I'd be willing to bet the farm that at a minimum we have sold bunker busters to Israel (not just what has been reported in the media). I hope they don't just go bombing cities if they do take action, that solves nothing.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,204 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    Why would Iran commit suicide by attacking another country with a nuclear bomb? They would be immediately obliterated and they know it.

    They hate the Israelis more than they like being alive.
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    They hate the Israelis more than they like being alive.

    They have you fooled then. Thats BS.

    Cite me some action the Iranian leadership has taken that indicates they are fanatics willing to sacrifice their lives.

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