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I'm just going to put this here.

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  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    This would not have happened if the guy had been armed with a second gun (the good gun could shoot the bad gun). The NRA tells me so.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,210 Senior Member
    This would not have happened with an assault rifle...

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,558 Senior Member
    Serious question, if he was taking a defensive driving course and drove his car into a tree, would it be just as news worthy? It was an accident. Accidents happen.

    My only concern with employees in the school having a gun would be whether or not there were proper policies in place to keep that gun out of the wrong hands and are there adequate measures to prevent a similar accident from happening in the classroom.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,558 Senior Member
    joekrz wrote: »

    Well now that would depend if you answer to this
    whether or not there were proper policies in place to keep that gun out of the wrong hands and are there adequate measures to prevent a similar accident from happening in the classroom.

    Is that there are no adequate policies to accomplish that.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,988 Senior Member
    Probably somebody booby-trapped his gun. There is a reason they are called the Van Vandals. :)
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member
    Glenn Geddie, a maintenance supervisor for the Van Independent School District in Northeast Texas, was shot in the leg when his gun misfired. Geddie had stayed after the class to receive extra instruction.

    Classic.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • ouzelproouzelpro Senior Member Posts: 5,361 Senior Member
    That extra instruction comes with a free trip to the ER in Texas.
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    It was an accident. Accidents happen.

    precisely. which, to a person with any background in statistics or probabilistic risk assessment, is a red flag warning.

    Specifically: at what rate do those accidents happen? Are they proportional to the number of staff in a school who have weapons? how many of these "accidents" are likely to result in injuries or deaths? At what point does this accident rate exceed any potential benefit from the ability of an armed school staff to interdict in a school shooting (data to date suggests that even having armed school personnel on site doesn't necessarily change the outcome of mass shooting incidents, which are typically over in under 5 minutes, often as a result of suicide on the part of the gunman).

    Since the intuitive answer to at least one of these questions is that since accidents are the result of human error, the NUMBER Of accidents ought to be proportional to the number of staff who have a gun. More guns = more potential for accidents. It is possible, of course, that having more armed staff will change some aspect of operational culture and reduce (or increase) the individual rate of accidents, but lacking evidence for that, we can assume with reasonable confidence that putting more guns in the hands of school staff means that more guns will discharge accidentally, be misplaced or lost where students can find them, will be used in an incident of rage or mistaken conflict (e.g., an unarmed school intruder), or any number of other accident scenarios.

    Given the exceedingly low probability of a school shooting incident taking place, weighed against potential negative consequences that go up in proportion to the number of armed school staff, one has to seriously question the efficacy of arming school personnel as a means of making our schools safer.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,558 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Glenn Geddie, a maintenance supervisor for the Van Independent School District in Northeast Texas, was shot in the leg when his gun misfired. Geddie had stayed after the class to receive extra instruction.

    Classic.

    Kinda misses the part where the gun jammed.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,558 Senior Member
    precisely. which, to a person with any background in statistics or probabilistic risk assessment, is a red flag warning.

    Specifically: at what rate do those accidents happen? Are they proportional to the number of staff in a school who have weapons? how many of these "accidents" are likely to result in injuries or deaths? At what point does this accident rate exceed any potential benefit from the ability of an armed school staff to interdict in a school shooting (data to date suggests that even having armed school personnel on site doesn't necessarily change the outcome of mass shooting incidents, which are typically over in under 5 minutes, often as a result of suicide on the part of the gunman).

    Since the intuitive answer to at least one of these questions is that since accidents are the result of human error, the NUMBER Of accidents ought to be proportional to the number of staff who have a gun. More guns = more potential for accidents. It is possible, of course, that having more armed staff will change some aspect of operational culture and reduce (or increase) the individual rate of accidents, but lacking evidence for that, we can assume with reasonable confidence that putting more guns in the hands of school staff means that more guns will discharge accidentally, be misplaced or lost where students can find them, will be used in an incident of rage or mistaken conflict (e.g., an unarmed school intruder), or any number of other accident scenarios.

    Given the exceedingly low probability of a school shooting incident taking place, weighed against potential negative consequences that go up in proportion to the number of armed school staff, one has to seriously question the efficacy of arming school personnel as a means of making our schools safer.

    Yes but many of the things that raise that accident statistic can be mitigated through proper training and policies. For instance I believe that statistically a revolver jams less frequently than a semi-auto.

    I think that anybody who looks at the security issue without also considering potential access points to the school grounds and the amount of traffic through those various points of entry is missing a serious security component. The reason for having security personnel whether armed or otherwise is to limit access to the students by potential threats. Just giving the teachers and janitors training and a handgun has got to be the stupidest idea since the Iraqi invasion.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Yes but many of the things that raise that accident statistic can be mitigated through proper training and policies.



    I'm not sure precisely how you intend to use the word "mitigated" here. The reality is that the risk of accidental harm can be reduced, but not eliminated. This is why police officers, soldiers, etc., who have a great deal of training, still suffer accidental injuries. How much it can be reduced is an unknown. Regardless, it is certain to be subject to the "law" of diminishing returns, i.e., there is a point at which further reductions of risk require massive additional investment in training. I know a much simpler policy that has proven to be extremely effective at preventing accidental firearms injuries to students: prohibit ALL staff and faculty, stuents and visitors from bringing firearms to school. That policy eliminated all but a tiny numbe4r of accidental shootings, and the only downside was that it failed to prevent an also tiny number of intentional shootings.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member
    Jamespio wrote: »
    That policy eliminated all but a tiny numbe4r of accidental shootings, and the only downside was that it failed to prevent an also tiny number of intentional shootings.

    Except accidental shootings don't have such high #s of dead people.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,988 Senior Member
    This ISD is a not far from me. I drive through Van often. Doesn't surprise me.

    Some people should not have guns. I'll leave out the details to shorten the story. This morning, the boss opened the bottom drawer in his desk to get something, and I saw a hand gun in it. Hit me like a ton of bricks. Like seeing an elephant in the drawer. He is not a gun guy. He noticed that I noticed it and took it out. In the process he accidentally pointed at me as he lifted it out of drawer without turning it as he go hold of the grip. It faced my direction as it was laying in the drawer. I said "I thank you not to point that at me." Oops.

    A client of his was selling the Glock through a pawn shop and talked my boss into buying it for protection from hogs. In 30 years he has never had a hog problem. A couple days ago, he was threatened by a hog. The hog chased his dog and bit it on the tail. The "new" pistol was in desk drawer at the time.:rolleyes:
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member
    FishTX wrote: »
    Some people should not have guns.

    I can't think of anyone that would argue that.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,988 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Except accidental shootings don't have such high #s of dead people.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

    The point, I think, they are trying to make in the posts above yours is that there will always be some risk if you arm school staff. Is the risk of accidents worth it considering how often a mass shooting in a school happens?
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Except accidental shootings don't have such high #s of dead people.

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

    Do you actgually understand that a comparison requires you to have two sets of data? Only B uford would take one set of data (mass shootings) and from trhat one set of data compare mass shootings to accidental shootings and deduce that the mass shootings result in more deaths. Of course, that conclusion is only possible because Buford chooses to be intenetionally ingorant of the number of accidental firearm deaths that occur each year in the U.S., from 500-1,000 annually. Mass shootings, 20-100 annually. But don't let hte facts get in the way of your beliefs, Buford, you never have before.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member
    Accidental shootings covers a wide range of things such as suicide, accidental, negligent. I'm having trouble coming up with just accidental shootings.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,558 Senior Member
    I wouldn't believe suicide would fall under accidental and even if it did would it really reduce the number by 80%?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Accidental shootings covers a wide range of things such as suicide, accidental, negligent.


    I think you mean it MIGHT cover TWO things, since "accidental" and "negligent" are the same thing. So some fo the "accidental shootings" are acgtually suicides. Wow, one heck of a point you're in the process of making. But, totally expected for someone who will willfully ocnvince himself of anything to justify his desires.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    I accidentally neglected not to shoot this thread in the face
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    There's still time. And inclination. And good reason, for that matter.

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