So Obama didn't want to close Gitmo?

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2013/04/a-strange-meeting-of-the-minds/

Interesting take.

I find it interesting how these memes spring up (Obama wanted to close Gitmo and congress blocked it) and over time become the conventional wisdom, regardless of how accurate the sentiment is. Once its part of the record, it becomes the truth.
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Replies

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    What benefits? Have I missed something? Have there been any new detainees sent to GITMO? If not GITMO where would he keep them?

    The plan was to close GITMO, however he realized the reality was that because these people were tortured he couldn't try them. That is not exactly his fault now is it. He certainly cannot release them. So recognizing the reality is not exactly reaping the benefits.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,815 Senior Member
    Step away from the trolling button, Sherb.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 2,946 Senior Member
    GITMO has a valuable use. One which we should utilize.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    GITMO has a valuable use. One which we should utilize.

    GITMO is a seriously expensive example of MISUSE. What gives us the right to throw human beings into lifetime confinement without trial. Communist Russia did this in the Gulag and we condemned it vigorously.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    sherb wrote: »
    I find it interesting how these memes spring up (Obama wanted to close Gitmo and congress blocked it) and over time become the conventional wisdom, regardless of how accurate the sentiment is. Once its part of the record, it becomes the truth.

    conventional wisdom is just easier ... the AM radio dial proves this
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,991 Senior Member
    January 22, 2009

    Sec. 3. Closure of Detention Facilities at Guantánamo. The detention facilities at Guantánamo for individuals covered by this order shall be closed as soon as practicable, and no later than 1 year from the date of this order. If any individuals covered by this order remain in detention at Guantánamo at the time of closure of those detention facilities, they shall be returned to their home country, released, transferred to a third country, or transferred to another United States detention facility in a manner consistent with law and the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantanamoDetentionFacilities

    Silly executive orders.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    joekrz wrote: »
    Silly executive orders.

    can't wait for the one banning all gubs
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    sherb, did you read the opinion piece you posted? It said Obama wanted to close Gitmo.

    The writer is just pissed that Obama had a more nuanced position that is hard for him to attack. The policy meme I find interesting is the constatnt conservative effort to bemoan Obama even when they agree with his policy.

    Personally, I believe that even the thinking end of the conservative movement has become obsessed with winning seats as opposed to winning policy debates. Either that or it's because he's a black man, but I'll admit I have no solid evidence for that.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,991 Senior Member
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Really James?

    You haven't figured out yet that what conservatives really bemoan is that Change! wasn't for the most part change but the American people barely realize it? Meanwhile otherwise intelligent liberals refuse to recognize it.

    Yes, what the writer notes is that Obama wanted to close Gitmo...and move it in pieces to Kansas. Change!
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Well, it wasn't the fish I was targeting, but if Steven is a 10" cutthroat, sherb is more like a 24" brown, much harder to bring to the surface.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Jamespio wrote: »

    Personally, I believe that even the thinking end of the conservative movement has become obsessed with winning seats as opposed to winning policy debates. Either that or it's because he's a black man, but I'll admit I have no solid evidence for that.


    Yeah, no **** you have no evidence for that. But feel free to weigh in with your douchebaggery anyway.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Which btw, if you were paying attention, is what he has said all along. Would you prefer he released all the prisoners? It was your boy that made it impossible to try them.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    joekrz wrote: »
    January 22, 2009

    Sec. 3. Closure of Detention Facilities at Guantánamo. The detention facilities at Guantánamo for individuals covered by this order shall be closed as soon as practicable, and no later than 1 year from the date of this order. If any individuals covered by this order remain in detention at Guantánamo at the time of closure of those detention facilities, they shall be returned to their home country, released, transferred to a third country, or transferred to another United States detention facility in a manner consistent with law and the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/ClosureOfGuantanamoDetentionFacilities

    Silly executive orders.

    And congress refused to allow any funding for this. Which sort of goes against Sherb's point.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Which btw, if you were paying attention, is what he has said all along.

    No duh. Hence, the original reference to the meme relative to the reality.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    And congress refused to allow any funding for this. Which sort of goes against Sherb's point.

    You've missed the point.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Answer the question, should he release the prisoners your guy tortured?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    You're still missing the point. Your guy doesn't want 'em released either. He just conned you suckers into feeling good about yourselves if he moved them to the mainland. And Congress is bad because they said, "no effing way."

    That you're so gullible is what pisses us off.

    While comparing Gitmo to the Gulag is a joke (why not go for Treblinka while we're at it?), at least Al got the point.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    You've missed the point.

    Actually no I didn't. The author was trying to say that Obama wanted to continue to use unlimited detention. There is no evidence of that in the record and he was given no choice but to continue it for certain prisoners by his predecessor. A fact both you and Sherb want to ignore. Is it because you think W should have had them tortured and like the idea of unlimited detention? Because that is what the author believes.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    You're still missing the point. Your guy doesn't want 'em released either.

    He can't release them. They were leaders in AQ. But he cannot try them because they were tortured.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    That you're so gullible is what pisses us off.

    That you are so transparently partisan is what pisses me off.
    Steven wrote: »
    While comparing Gitmo to the Gulag is a joke (why not go for Treblinka while we're at it?), at least Al got the point.

    Yes at least in a Gulag you got a show trial.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Obama 2009: Now, finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people. And I have to be honest here -- this is the toughest single issue that we will face. We're going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, or commanded Taliban troops in battle, or expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.

    Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people.


    This is what the writer and Glenn Greenwald are going on about.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    That you are so transparently partisan is what pisses me off.

    It sucks to have somebody point out reality.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    further proof that Obama loves the Muslim terrorists
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    I didn't need it pointed out I have been paying attention. You are the one making an issue of it as though it actually means something.

    Answer the question. What should he do with the people your guy tortured?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Obama 2009: Now, finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people. And I have to be honest here -- this is the toughest single issue that we will face. We're going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, or commanded Taliban troops in battle, or expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.

    Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people.


    This is what the writer and Glenn Greenwald are going on about.

    I knew this already. It seems you are the one who thinks this is new information.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I didn't need it pointed out I have been paying attention. You are the one making an issue of it as though it actually means something.

    Answer the question. What should he do with the people your guy tortured?

    Tortured or not (boo hoo, KSM supposedly wore a bra) same thing Obama does. Leave 'em. Preferably in Cuba.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    So what is your problem?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Tortured or not (boo hoo, KSM supposedly wore a bra)

    You're greatly understating what the US did to people held at Gitmo. Here's a memoir from one detainee describing what happened to him:

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2013/04/mohamedou_ould_slahi_s_guantanamo_memoirs_part_1_the_endless_interrogations.html

    There are three parts. It's long so grab a snack.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    put them all in a camp somewheres

    it's the only solution

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