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Replies

  • good thing Idaho is white cuzz nunn of dem peepulls izz dumm
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,196 Senior Member
    The disparities are real - see the sound statistical analysis in the much-maligned "The Bell Curve". That the disparities have more to do with social and economic factors, as opposed to skin color or genetics, is ignored or pushed aside by the rightwads.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • greenman wrote: »
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37qrLGhXch0

    You know who else used IQ tests?

    Progressives?

    do we need to have that discussion again?
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,165 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    I'll get this board going if it kills me.
    New hobby?
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • Well, its something for the time being. . .
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,196 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Well, its something for the time being. . .

    I am filled with pride knowing that my suggestion - internet trolling - carried the day. :)
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    ****. I thought this thread was going to be about NASCAR spectators....
  • George K wrote: »
    I am filled with pride knowing that my suggestion - internet trolling - carried the day. :)

    Yeah, I'm trying to get things going, but I don't troll per se (well, except for the global warming thread); I posted links here, I want to have a discussion.
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,165 Senior Member
    What was the point of the second article?
    I don't avoid race and IQ out of politeness to Andrew; I avoid it because I have a bias toward knowing what I'm talking about.
    Then he goes into a few paragraphs talking about it. Seems like he admits to ignorance, but couldn't stifle the urge debate the subject anyway.
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • Its just a blog discussion. Don't know that it has a point

    Cliffs: Blogger X says the link between IQ and race is being ignored due to political correctness. Blogger Y replies that the science of IQ has always been politicized and still is--in favor of the racists. Blogger X offers a rebuttal, etc. Its a good discussion.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member
    I knew a black guy one time and he was really dumb.

    That pretty much solidified my opinion.
  • rhumblinerhumbline Senior Member Posts: 154 Senior Member
    I didn't read the links, but there is definitely a link between races and IQ. Especially longer races. People who run a 5K can be pretty smart, but you gotta be pretty dumb to run a marathon.
    Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people look smart until you hear them talk.
  • Who here has actually taken an IQ test?

    I have. And I can tell you that the questions composing the test were all, every last one, based in a set of cultural assumptions. For instance, the following is typical of the type of question found on nyumerous IQ tests: If I went to bed at 8 in the evening, wound up my clock, and set the alarm to sound at 9 in the morning, how many hours sleep would I get before the alarm went off. Anyone here in the lodge can answer that question. But imagine you administered the test to a tribesman from Papua New Guinea who had spent his life int he jungle, without any form of electricity whatsoever, and who relied on the position of the sun and the moon in the sky to tell time. He'd never be able to anwer that question, and the IQ test would find him to be a redneck, I mean moron. That question, and IQ tests generally don't measure "intelligence." They measure acquired knowledge.

    There are two and only two, ways to make IQ testing valid and even vaguely useful. You normalize the test for each and every subcultural group. So our tribesman from Papua New Guinea would take a different test than the one you and I take. The scores would be tabulated and the median tribesman on his test would be ASSIGNED an IQ of 100. The median score on the american test would be ASSIGNED an IQ of 100. But there is no conceivable way to tell whether tests in two vastly different languages, based on two vastly different set of cultural norms, are measuring the same thing, the thing you would like to call "intelligence." It's entirely possible, and you'll never know one way or the other that one test is measuring "intelligence" and the other is measuring acquired knowledge. Or one test is measuring acquired knowledge, but the other test is measuring only test taking skills. The fact that people can "train" for IQ tests and improve their scores (in exactly the same way that we train young people to take SATs by familiarizing them with the types of questions and practicing specific problem solving skills that will be useful on that test) demonstrates that the tests do not measure "intelligence." They measure a specific set of skills and knowledge.

    In the alternative, the second way to try to normalize tests across cultures is to have our tribesmen take the same test as our suburbanites, but we test 10,000 tribesmen and the median score of the tribesman would be counted as a "100," just as the median score of Americans would be counted as a "100" for Americans. You've normalized the test, and now you can claim, in a statistical sense, that you can compare the tribesmen to americans. Lo and behold you disocver that white americans have a much greater range of perofrmance on the test than do New Guinean tribesman. After all, on a 200 question test Americans score everywhere from 50 to 200 with a median score of 100, while the tribesman score between 0 (some of them don't know english at all) and, let's say 50, with a median score of 30 (which is now assigned an IQ of 100). From this you deduce that there is less variation in inelligence among tribesman than among Americans, and you write books like "The Bell Curve" explaining that there really are racial differences in the distribution and variation of intelligence. But what the hell have you actgually measured, even with your statistical normalization? As to the tribesmen you've measured their familiarity with Western culture, foiund it to be relatively low, and with a low degree of variance, and then pronounced that to be "intelligence" when it is no such thing.

    If you claim to care about "intelligence testing" please start with a clear, unambiguous definition fo the word "intelligence." In fact, sherb, I challenge ou in particular to do exactly that. What exactly is this "intelligence" you think is being tested?
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,913 Senior Member
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Brian D.Brian D. Senior Member Posts: 4,011 Senior Member
    Sherb, can we get a study on what happens if you hit black people in the head with soccer balls?

    (other than the researcher getting his **** ****, I mean)

    bd
  • Brian D.Brian D. Senior Member Posts: 4,011 Senior Member
    Jamespio wrote: »
    Who here has actually taken an IQ test?

    I have. And I can tell you that the questions composing the test were all, every last one, based in a set of cultural assumptions.

    This is interesting to me. I've taken an IQ test or two, and I disagree with you.

    Maybe - MAYBE - some of the problems arguably exhibited cultural bias potential. But every last one??? No. Total horseshit.

    A lot of the problems on the test were aimed at gauging spatial reasoning and things like that. An example would be a "flattened" geometric shape where you have to figure out what it becomes when "put together," or a problem where you have to put blocks together to recreate a geometric shape. You have to go to almost preposterous lengths to come up with any "cultural bias" that would creep into this part of the test, unless we are talking about an exceptionally exotic culture.

    Other parts were similarly non-verbal - recognizing patterns, mostly, in geometric shapes or sequences of numbers. You really have to reach to get much measurable culture bias here too.

    The math problems I recall didn't really focus much on simple word problems like you described, but I guess it arguably COULD give rise to culture bias in weird circumstances. But James, we aren't talking about comparing IQ between white folks and head hunters from New Guinea. Using your hypothetical problem as an example - if both black and white people in America use alarm clocks, why should we conclude that your test question's presumed "culture bias" favors one race over the other?

    The other sections I remember being tested on were analogies, which do require good vocabulary and language understanding; and reading comprehension, which also requires certain language skills to decode a passage and understand the point. But honestly - once you normalize for a person's native language, most of these claimed culture biases are awfully overblown.

    bd
  • Mr. RightMr. Right Senior Member Posts: 535 Senior Member
    Ohmigosh, I actually find myslef agreeing with Brian D! The world may end tomorrow!

    PS, I did not read the link.
  • Brian D.Brian D. Senior Member Posts: 4,011 Senior Member
    Please don't say you agree with me in a thread about IQ. It opens me up to gratuitous attack.

    bd
  • Jamespio wrote: »
    Who here has actually taken an IQ test?

    I have. And I can tell you that the questions composing the test were all, every last one, based in a set of cultural assumptions.

    This was Michael's point to his mother about the SAT test on "Good Times."

    Btw, IQ has nothing to do with race, but everything to do with religion. That's readily apparent.
  • ashkenazi jews score really high.

    Baptists score about the same as the Headhunters from New Guinea (ok, I made that up but it wouldn't surprise me)
  • Are we higher than the sephardics? "Those people" are such egomaniacs.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,196 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Are we higher than the sephardics? "Those people" are such egomaniacs.

    Yeah, sure, but they smite more mightier blows than do European wimps, especially in hot weather - albeit not so much in arctic conditions.

    The moral? If you want to diss the sephardim stay in Chicago, preferably from November through March or April.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Baptists score about the same as the Headhunters from New Guinea (ok, I made that up but it wouldn't surprise me)

    Heeeyyy... I think I scored in the 120s when I took the test back in elementary school.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    I knew a black guy one time and he was really dumb.

    That pretty much solidified my opinion.

    We should count up the dumb white people.

    [one]
  • sherb wrote: »
    ashkenazi jews score really high

    hence the reason Peter Griffin wanted to become a Jew so his kids would get into a good school
  • ouzelproouzelpro Senior Member Posts: 5,361 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Are we higher than the sephardics? "Those people" are such egomaniacs.

    Things have just not been the same since you folks misplaced the Ark.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member
    Hextall wrote: »
    We should count up the dumb white people.

    [one]

    Well, naturally you can probably find one. There are how many whites in the world? Surely the laws of average apply even here.
  • Brian D. wrote: »
    This is interesting to me. I've taken an IQ test or two, and I disagree with you.

    Maybe - MAYBE - some of the problems arguably exhibited cultural bias potential. But every last one??? No. Total horseshit.

    A lot of the problems on the test were aimed at gauging spatial reasoning and things like that. An example would be a "flattened" geometric shape where you have to figure out what it becomes when "put together," or a problem where you have to put blocks together to recreate a geometric shape. You have to go to almost preposterous lengths to come up with any "cultural bias" that would creep into this part of the test, unless we are talking about an exceptionally exotic culture.

    Other parts were similarly non-verbal - recognizing patterns, mostly, in geometric shapes or sequences of numbers. You really have to reach to get much measurable culture bias here too.

    The math problems I recall didn't really focus much on simple word problems like you described, but I guess it arguably COULD give rise to culture bias in weird circumstances. But James, we aren't talking about comparing IQ between white folks and head hunters from New Guinea. Using your hypothetical problem as an example - if both black and white people in America use alarm clocks, why should we conclude that your test question's presumed "culture bias" favors one race over the other?

    The other sections I remember being tested on were analogies, which do require good vocabulary and language understanding; and reading comprehension, which also requires certain language skills to decode a passage and understand the point. But honestly - once you normalize for a person's native language, most of these claimed culture biases are awfully overblown.

    bd

    The cultural bias exists in how the question itself is worded.

    But let's assume that it's only 25% of the questions that exhibit cultural bias. Your test is still utterly useless, unless you think a confidence interval of something like 50% is somehow useful.

    Look at every type of question you've just described and explain to me how it is impossible to simply train someone to do better on those questions. YOu cannot. So, once again, you're not measuring something called "intelligence" you're measuring acquired knowledge and skills. So, assume further that there are race-based variations in scores, what does this tell us? It tells us that some racial groups are being trained and educated better than others. I guess the only logical conclusion is that we need to do a better job of fighting racism. Thanks to the right wingers for pointing out the failures of our efforts to address racism in education, now let's go fix that problem.

    Finally, the statement "once you normalive for a person's native language" goes to the heart of th eproblem as well. Once you normalize for language you've solved much but not all of the problem. Now normalize for different cultural issues, like the fact that some cultures don't use clocks at all, some use almost exclusively 24-hour clocks rather than 12-hour clocks (so questions involving time calculations need to be modified), others don't maintain the same family relatoinships as we do in the west (so all questions referencing relations must be modified), still others have different grooming standards, dress patterns. Let's make all the changes necessary to culturally normalize a test across hundreds of different cultural systems around the world. At this point, it's impossible to be sure that you are even measuring the same thing with each different test.

    Which is why I challenge any of you to define "intelligence" in a way that we can actually be sure we are talking about and measuring the same thing for each individual. But I notice, Brian, you didn't take up that challenge.
  • The Sephardim lost the Ark. And they think they're so much better than us.

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