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Not a Bernie Bro

George KGeorge K Super ModeratorPosts: 11,659 Senior Member

Sad and illuminating story. I wonder how many Sanders supporters are like him, beaten down, disillusioned, angry. and without hope? It's well worth reading.

"MADISON, Wis. — Debt has dogged Brian Michelz his entire adult life.

It started with an ambulance ride when he was 18 and two hospital stays. Then came college loans. By the time Mr. Michelz made it out into the world, his credit score was so low he could not even get a credit card. He has paid for everything he has ever bought — televisions, furniture, cars — up front. After grocery shopping on Wednesday, his bank account had three dollars in it.

Mr. Michelz, 29, has never worn a political T-shirt or been to a campaign rally. But when he voted for the first time in his life, in the primary of 2016, it was for Bernie Sanders...

...In 2008, the financial crisis tore through his family. His mother lost their house that she had fought to keep after his father’s suicide, and she and her two sons had to move in with Mr. Michelz’s grandparents.

That year, when Mr. Michelz was 18, he took a part-time job cleaning out houses after they had been foreclosed on. He saw closets stuffed with cherished possessions — photographs, prom dresses, watches — and threw these things into dumpsters. Once, a man begged him to open the door so he could retrieve his belongings.

It was a searing experience and the beginning of his political education.

“When I hear Bernie’s forgiving debt and people say, ‘It’s way too expensive,’ I think, you did the craziest thing for the banks,” he said of the bailouts. “Yet normal families were thrown in the street, literally.”

He continued: “The middle finger was given to our family, while the rich guys got off scot-free.”...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/07/us/bernie-sanders-voters.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=US News

The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
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Replies

  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member

    Cry me a river.

    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,544 Senior Member

    Yeah come on, he got sick, he deserves to be poor.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member

    When ever I hear people crying about college loans it drives me nuts. They knew what they were doing going in.

    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,659 Senior Member

    They probably didn't know they would earn more working in a tire shop than as a teacher.

    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 6,287 Senior Member
    edited March 2020 #6

    A problem on several levels. High school guidance counselors and parents have underestimated the rise of tuition relative to wages, for one. Plus schools are still ranked based on how many kids go to college. Not how many finish it. Plus with some degrees the hot ticket or technology can change within 4 years.

    That's not to say the students aren't responsible. But to think that they knew what they were getting into is false. I doubt most adults here know the full situation.

  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,014 Senior Member

    No one is forced to go to college

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,544 Senior Member

    Just as not everyone has what it takes to be an executive. Not everyone has what it takes to do blue collar work.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 6,287 Senior Member
    edited March 2020 #9

    Nope. But it's not like most kids are presented with the alternatives with the same enthusiasm as college.

    Heck, we have STEM programs now for public middle schools around here. And kids are applying to different high school academies for engineering, biomedical, computer science, and the like. And trying to get zoning variations for that.

    But vocational and trade programs? You're on your own.

    This is all in public schools, by the way.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,659 Senior Member

    In my area of PA there are public high schools that teach many trades. Students most years will build a house at the equivalent of our state fair.

    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 6,287 Senior Member

    That's really a great thing. FL for some reason likes to push college.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,544 Senior Member

    California's Community Colleges offer training in the Auto Trades among others. I took CCNA Certification Training for $700.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 4,363 Senior Member

    Countries we are competing with are investing in STEM and other important education for their best students. China, and other countries seek out talent and train it at low cost to the student because they see it as a national benefit. In the U.S. we used to do so during the Cold War years, (thank you taxpayers for my degrees). Now, there seems to be a distain for the idea that its important to develope our talent. Meanwhile, the loan systems have allowed schools to up their tuition and still get students to enroll, but its a poor replacement for low tuition.

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,225 Senior Member
    edited March 2020 #14

    Perhaps he should stop looking at politicians to be his savior and do something for himself. College isn't a bad thing.

    https://study.com/articles/How_Much_More_Do_College_Graduates_Earn_Than_Non-College_Graduates.html

  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 4,363 Senior Member

    You know, it used to be felt that a traditional liberal arts B.A. education was important because leaders in politics and business needed to understand history and social patterns in order to make the best decisions for society and their organizations. The more extensive and rounded the program, the better. Today, its all about your cyber skills.
    I can't help but think we are seeing the decay of such leadership in the problems of today.

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,225 Senior Member

    Liberal arts is the laughing stock of college degrees.

  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 4,363 Senior Member
    edited March 2020 #17

    Only because its expensive. But he did learn how to shmooze the e-rich into buying his stuff.
    Paid for by doting parents who didn't have the common sense a degree might have given them.

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,225 Senior Member

    And because it's worthless. It doesn't give you the skills needed to work in todays economy.

  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 4,363 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:
    And because it's worthless. It doesn't give you the skills needed to work in todays economy.

    The skills you need to to work in todays economy? Heck, they will be obsolete in a few years!

    What is it you say is worthless? A classic liberal arts degree, with a background in subjects like history, foreign culture, foreign language, and basic science, or a program that fails to provide those things as so many colleges are willing to provide.
    I think those who went through a strong such Liberal Arts program and paid attention would say it was worth it. But yes, they have become too expensive.

  • LandoLando Posts: 266 Senior Member

    Today's economy. The skill to write never gets old.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 6,410 Senior Member

    @creekguy said:

    @NZ Indicator said:
    And because it's worthless. It doesn't give you the skills needed to work in todays economy.

    The skills you need to to work in todays economy? Heck, they will be obsolete in a few years!

    What is it you say is worthless? A classic liberal arts degree, with a background in subjects like history, foreign culture, foreign language, and basic science, or a program that fails to provide those things as so many colleges are willing to provide.

    I think those who went through a strong such Liberal Arts program and paid attention would say it was worth it. But yes, they have become too expensive.

    Not worthless. Perhaps such a degree doesn't bring a high wage job, but most definitely not worthless.

    There are things about the world that in order to consider oneself educated one has to know. a liberal arts degree is how you learn those.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,544 Senior Member

    You guys are putting way too much emphasis on one of the smaller issues this person brings up.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,544 Senior Member

    There were EVP's at my bank that started with Liberal Arts Degrees. Company paid for their masters.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • ShawnC2ShawnC2 Posts: 1,701 Senior Member

    I think Joe is referring to the liberal arts "degrees" that I think Joe is alluding to, such as basket weaving or art appreciation. Agreed that those are quite, um... limiting, in terms of future earnings potential. However, most "real" degrees have a large liberal arts education component. I thought I'd point that out to Joe.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,659 Senior Member
    edited March 2020 #25

    A liberal arts degree such as Sherb outlined above teaches you to think critically, and to go on to advanced degrees or careers in fields as diverse as law, medicine, science, business, management or what have you.

    What some post here is classic solipsism.

    As Albert Einstein once said “Education is not the learning of facts, but the training of the mind to think".

    Edit - Speaking of solipsism, I removed some personal examples.

    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,544 Senior Member

    One of our project managers had a degree in Art History.

    BTW for those of you who think the arts are not valuable, need to get rid of all your furniture, art work on your walls and turn off your televisions and destroy all your music. And I better not hear of any of you going to see Hamilton.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,225 Senior Member

    @ShawnC2 said:
    I think Joe is referring to the liberal arts "degrees" that I think Joe is alluding to, such as >basket weaving or art appreciation. Agreed that those are quite, um... limiting, in terms of >future earnings potential.

    Correct. They aren't specialized enough to prepare you for a specific career. A bachelor’s degree in liberal arts might make you a well-rounded person, but it won’t necessarily help you get a decent job which is why I think they are useless.

  • LandoLando Posts: 266 Senior Member

    What is a "decent" job to you?

  • Buffco2Buffco2 Posts: 861 Senior Member

    More money.

    To him. I'm more into personal satisfaction, these days.

  • LandoLando Posts: 266 Senior Member

    Oh, well you don't need a degree to make money.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 6,410 Senior Member

    Exactly. If money were my criteria I'd probably be an electrician. My brother barely graduated high school and he makes bank.

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