Mexico

2

Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,824 Senior Member

    I believe they held Mexican and American citizenship. But, yeah, the outrage is kinda odd. Especially if you look up the past cartel atrocities.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,161 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    I find it curious that this outrage and desire to nuke the cartels comes after some white folks are murdered. They live in Mexico. The media is referring to them as Americans. But they live there. Therefore they are Mexicans. Thousands of Mexicans die every year. I think this is tragic, I have also felt for years that we need to provide military aid to Mexico and the rest of Central America and treat these gangs the same way we treat ISIS.

    Except the outrage over the cartels, the drugs, the human trafficking, and the lawlessness around our border, isn’t new at all. A man like Trump was elected POTUS by promising to “Build that Wall”.

    “Thousands of Mexicans die every year.”
    So, are you saying Mexicans are murderers??

  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,334 Senior Member
    edited November 8 #34

    They are Mormons, so meh. Who cares about Shawn's people.

    *Note: I am totally just kidding. This is a terrible thing and I hope all of Mexico can take their country back from the cartels

  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 1,076 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    I find it curious that this outrage and desire to nuke the cartels comes after some white folks are murdered. They live in Mexico. The media is referring to them as Americans. But they live there. Therefore they are Mexicans. Thousands of Mexicans die every year. I think this is tragic, I have also felt for years that we need to provide military aid to Mexico and the rest of Central America and treat these gangs the same way we treat ISIS.

    Except the outrage over the cartels, the drugs, the human trafficking, and the lawlessness around our border, isn’t new at all. A man like Trump was elected POTUS by promising to “Build that Wall”.

    “Thousands of Mexicans die every year.”
    So, are you saying Mexicans are murderers??

    There is nothing about a wall would have helped these murder victims.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,046 Senior Member

    I think they were U.S. citizens living in Mexico, not Mexicans.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,161 Senior Member
    edited November 8 #37

    @Green Mt Boy said:

    @MikeA said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    I find it curious that this outrage and desire to nuke the cartels comes after some white folks are murdered. They live in Mexico. The media is referring to them as Americans. But they live there. Therefore they are Mexicans. Thousands of Mexicans die every year. I think this is tragic, I have also felt for years that we need to provide military aid to Mexico and the rest of Central America and treat these gangs the same way we treat ISIS.

    Except the outrage over the cartels, the drugs, the human trafficking, and the lawlessness around our border, isn’t new at all. A man like Trump was elected POTUS by promising to “Build that Wall”.

    “Thousands of Mexicans die every year.”
    So, are you saying Mexicans are murderers??

    There is nothing about a wall would have helped these murder victims.

    That wasn’t my point. My point was that there has been outrage about the border situation for years. It’s not new and it’s not just because some white people were killed.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,046 Senior Member
    edited November 8 #38

    Here's an interesting take from an anti-Trump conservative who grew-up in Mexico:

    MEXICO CITY — On a working visit here, I have dinner with one of the country’s elder statesmen and listen to him describe its greatest challenges. He names three: “Rule of law. Rule of law. And rule of law.”

    The truth of the observation is underscored a few days later, when gunmen kill nine members of the LeBarón family along a back-country road in the northern state of Sonora. The motive for the massacre is unclear, but its barbarity is not: three women and six children, including infant twins, shot at close range and burned alive in their cars.

    The episode has gained major attention in the U.S. largely because the LeBaróns are part of a longstanding American Mormon presence in northern Mexico. (George Romney, the late Michigan governor and Mitt’s father, was born in a Mormon colony in Chihuahua in 1907, which he was forced to flee as a child during the Mexican Revolution.)

    But the reason the killings really matter is that they are yet another reminder that Mexico is on a fast track toward becoming a failed state.

    For this, blame a combination of managerial incompetence and ideological inanity from Donald Trump and his Mexican counterpart, Andrés Manuel López Obrador. In 2015, I asked then-candidate Trump whether he feared that his protectionist policies would hurt Mexico in ways that ultimately would hurt the United States as well. His reply: “I don’t care about Mexico, honestly. I really don’t care about Mexico.”

    Since then, Trump has forced a dubious renegotiation of NAFTA, but has yet to get the new trade agreement ratified in Congress, causing business uncertainties that have brought the Mexican economy to the edge of recession. It took the administration more than a year to replace its ambassador in Mexico, after the last one resigned in disgust. And Trump’s insistence that Mexico militarize its southern border with Guatemala has drained its army of the manpower it needs to fight the drug cartels.

    Last month, in the northwestern city of Culiacán, Mexican security forces found themselves quickly outnumbered and outgunned when they tried to arrest the son of Joaquín “El Chapo” Guzmán, the jailed drug lord. The soldiers capitulated and the son was promptly freed.

    If Trump’s actions have been damaging, López Obrador’s have been disastrous.

    His slogan in the face of cartel violence is “hugs, not bullets.” His strategy has been to increase spending on social programs while urging gangsters to think of their mothers. He has claimed, preposterously, that crime is under control, and still insists he has no intention of rethinking his approach. In the Culiacán fiasco, he praised the decision to release El Chapo’s son while ordering the disclosure of the officer’s name who had ordered the operation, endangering the man’s life. Much of the army officer corps now openly reviles their commander in chief.

    A parody of a policy has produced a predictable result: 2019 is on course to become Mexico’s most violent year in decades, with about 17,000 killings between January and June. In sheer numbers, that’s a figure that exceeds the civilian death toll in Iraq at the height of war in 2006.

    So what could work? A conversation with a former senior U.S. intelligence official suggests a bracing analogy.

    “What has always been required,” the former official says, “is to construct a comprehensive, integrated civil-military campaign, where ‘military’ includes all security services , similar to a counterinsurgency campaign such as the one pursued in the surge in Iraq.”

    But hasn’t that been tried before?

    Not quite. Under president Felipe Calderón (2006-2012), Mexico pursued a “kingpin” strategy of taking down cartel leaders. But decapitation strikes never work when your enemy is a Hydra. His successor, Enrique Peña Nieto, believed that economic prosperity and political reform would be an antidote to criminality. But that turned out to be another mirage as growth lagged and corruption surged.

    “When Mexican presidents have looked at this, it’s such a daunting task,” the former official notes. “It’s very manpower intensive, and it’s not just security forces to clear, hold, and build. They have to be supported by strong judicial authorities, which in turn have to be supported by strong prison authorities. Those are the three legs of the rule-of-law stool, and if any of them are weak, it can cause the whole enterprise to topple.”

    In Mexico, all the legs of the stool are cracked. Prisons are out of control. Municipal authorities cower before the cartels. The “impunity rate” — that is, the likelihood that crimes will not be punished — is just shy of 99 percent.

    This is not business as usual for Mexico. Either the country is going to get a grip on its crisis of institutions and its deficits in leadership or it is going to increasingly resemble Iraq before the surge, albeit with drug money taking the place of religious fanaticism. Donald Trump might not care about Mexico, but you should. Even if we build a wall, no crisis will ever respect a border.

    Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.

    Bret L. Stephens has been an Opinion columnist with The Times since April 2017. He won a Pulitzer Prize for commentary at The Wall Street Journal in 2013 and was previously editor in chief of The Jerusalem Post. Facebook

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/opinion/mexico-mormons.html

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,161 Senior Member

    Couldn't make it past.
    "Mexico is on a fast track toward becoming a failed state.
    For this, blame a combination of managerial incompetence and ideological inanity from Donald Trump "

  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member

    The president ordered the disclosure of the arresting officer's name???

    Holy hell, that blood is on his hands. Why would he do that?

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,222 Senior Member

    man, I'm tired of being right.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,046 Senior Member

    @Buffco said:
    The president ordered the disclosure of the arresting officer's name???
    Holy hell, that blood is on his hands. Why would he do that?

    Cherchez le gelt.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    I find it curious that this outrage and desire to nuke the cartels comes after some white folks are murdered. They live in Mexico. The media is referring to them as Americans. But they live there. Therefore they are Mexicans. Thousands of Mexicans die every year. I think this is tragic, I have also felt for years that we need to provide military aid to Mexico and the rest of Central America and treat these gangs the same way we treat ISIS.

    Except the outrage over the cartels, the drugs, the human trafficking, and the lawlessness around our border, isn’t new at all. A man like Trump was elected POTUS by promising to “Build that Wall”.

    “Thousands of Mexicans die every year.”
    So, are you saying Mexicans are murderers??

    Well it is new around here.

    Building the wall is about keeping the victims of that lawlessness out.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    @George K said:
    I think they were U.S. citizens living in Mexico, not Mexicans.

    If they are living in Mexico, they are Mexicans.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:
    Couldn't make it past.
    "Mexico is on a fast track toward becoming a failed state.
    For this, blame a combination of managerial incompetence and ideological inanity from Donald Trump "

    Of course you couldn't. However if you were to read further he makes a fact base analysis of why is argument is correct.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,046 Senior Member
    edited November 9 #47

    @fishingcomic said:

    @George K said:
    I think they were U.S. citizens living in Mexico, not Mexicans.

    If they are living in Mexico, they are Mexicans.

    Utter nonsense. This displays complete ignorance of U.S. and Mexican citizenship and residency law.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_diaspora

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    So you're saying they identify as American? B)

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,046 Senior Member

    I'm saying these people were American citizens living in Morman colonies in Mexico that have existed for at least a hundred years. Just like Mitt's grandparents. His father was born there and later went on to a successful and interesting business and political career here. When he entered the race for President he started a debate about what a"natural born citizen" is, one that has yet to be fully settled, although it generally is accepted that someone born overseas of at least one American citizen parent - my children, for example - is a U.S. citizen at birth and therefore eligible to be President under the "natural born citizen clause".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Romney

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    Do they pay taxes in the US?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member

    His link above spells that out. Apparently they do, exorbitantly so.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    Exorbitantly?

    , if they receive earned income (wages, salaries, etc.) while residing in a foreign country, they can exclude an amount of foreign earned income from the US taxation or receive credit for foreign taxes paid.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,046 Senior Member

    I do not know what income taxes are in Mexico, but that foreign tax exclusion is of varying help, depending on local tax rates.

    BTW - The U.S. is, I believe, the only developed country to tax income earned abroad by citizens or legal residents living abroad. U.S. government employees as was, assigned abroad on official business are not subject to local income taxes.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member

    See, comic? Exorbitant.

  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,334 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:

    @George K said:
    I think they were U.S. citizens living in Mexico, not Mexicans.

    If they are living in Mexico, they are Mexicans.

    By this logic you must be a resident of Uranus

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    Where do the dickless people live?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,334 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    Where do the dickless people live?

    Not sure. Whats your address.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    I know you are but what am I?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,405 Senior Member

    Pretty sure you are from a Country Under Neath The Sea.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,046 Senior Member

    Keep it civil.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 7,027 Senior Member

    @Buffco said:
    See, comic? Exorbitant.

    I have very little financial sympathy for people who willingly give 10% of their pre-tax income to a multi-level marketing scheme.

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