Concentration camps

sherbsherb Senior MemberPosts: 3,792 Senior Member

AOC called the detention centers along our southern border "Concentration Camps." Obviously this was a deliberate provocation. But is she wrong?

Not totally.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/academics-rally-behind-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-over-concentration-camp-comments-she-is-completely-historically-accurate/ar-AADls3q?li=BBnb7Kz

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Replies

  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 981 Senior Member

    From an academic standpoint she is probably correct. From the article:

    "Concentration camps are any place where large numbers of people are held in poor conditions because of their nationality, ethnicity, religion or other characteristics rather than as individuals convicted of crimes."

    Not sure about the "poor conditions" element but otherwise the detention centers fit the bill.

    However, I am not sure what the alternative is. If undocumented migrants are not detained they will simply disappear into the country. That undermines the notion of there being a border and having legal requirements to cross the border.

    IMO here is a grand bargain that would go some ways to solving the problem:

    1. Grant dreamers citizenship.

    2. Create a path to citizenship for undocumented migrants who came to the US before a specified date.

    3. Amend the law to require requests for asylum be made at a US embassy or consulate in another country or, if made at the border, that entry not be allowed until the request is adjudicated.

    4. Enhance border security and, if undocumented migrants are caught in the country, deport them.

    5. Establish reasonably generous annual quotas for people from Mexico and Central American countries to legally migrate to the US for whatever reason.

  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 1,505 Senior Member

    I agree with #2, 3, and 4.
    For 2, they should have to complete this by a certain date or be deported.

    Also, English should be a requirement. You don't have to be proficient at it, but should be able to get by. This was required of my in-laws when they came here from Italy in 1956.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    Technically she may have been correct to use the term. But if we were honest, we would admit her purpose in using the term was to bring up images of Dachau. So it is pure hyperbole.

    However whatever you call them, something should be done.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 3,792 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    Technically she may have been correct to use the term. But if we were honest, we would admit her purpose in using the term was to bring up images of Dachau. So it is pure hyperbole.

    However whatever you call them, something should be done.

    agreed on all points.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    "Amend the law to require requests for asylum be made at a US embassy or consulate in another country or, if made at the border, that entry not be allowed until the request is adjudicated."

    So they should just wait in the country where they may be subject to murder or torture? Would you make a NK wait?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    If you really want to resolve this. You give them a decent place to be detained. Keep families together. Heck you can even allow them to leave the facility as long as they must return or forfeit their rights. Then you provide enough lawyers and judges to hear their cases within days and not years. The reason why catch and release was a failure was because the migrants knew it could be years before they got a hearing.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 3,792 Senior Member

    @Green Mt Boy said:

    1. Amend the law to require requests for asylum be made at a US embassy or consulate in another country or, if made at the border, that entry not be allowed until the request is adjudicated.

    I think this is the problem though. The adjudications take so long and there's such a backlog that they have no choice but to release them and give them a court date, or detain them. I can't even envision how many federal judges you would have to add to clear the backlog. And of course Federal Judge appointments take months just to do the vetting.

    This is a bad situation. right now I'm hoping a combination of government resources and private enterprise (walmart, maybe?) can at least make the situation at the detention centers tolerable.

  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 981 Senior Member

    The asylum process issue is a tough one. I haven't researched this but my sense is that the original intent was to allow people at risk of political persecution to seek and, if they could prove they were at risk, get asylum. As much as I sympathize with the motive I don't see fleeing grinding poverty or drug gang violence as being the same as fleeing political persecution. It seems to me that the current waves of migrants from Central America are taking advantage of the asylum law by showing up, making an asylum request and then, if we don't have the capacity to hold them and they are therefore released pending adjudication, disappearing into the country. That strikes me as abusing our asylum law and providing an incentive to do so. I suppose we could detain every single asylum seeker pending adjudication but given the huge numbers we'll end up with a lot of expensive concentration camps (which I guess is already the case). I'd rather see the incentive to seek asylum reduced by tightening the law and/or process. Because I sympathize with the desire to escape grinding poverty and/or drug and violence I'm OK with having a fairly liberal quota for legal immigration from Central America. But, as a sovereign nation we are entitled to have control over our borders and if we have an "anything goes" policy the entire population of Central America and probably a good portion of Mexico's population would move to the US, which would IMO simply be too much too fast.

  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,694 Senior Member

    I think we're still winning for most "Unique" asylum claim

    Buddy from Haiti showed up at the border (Having taken the cab in the US )---says he had to flee home cuz they wouldn't let him sing

    Yeah---he's back in the sunny south

  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,694 Senior Member

    This just out---the sad part of this whole picture

    https://cbc.ca/news/world/4-dead-border-crossing-1.5187414

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,855 Senior Member

    The real sad part is that the left and their msm allies have been trying to convince rhe county that there isn’t a crisis at the border

  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,795 Senior Member

    We should also engage with the Central American countries towards the goal of improving living conditions. American aid should be increased, not decreased as the Trump Administration is doing.


    I don’t have any ideas about how to improve the detention centers but lessening the need for them by addressing the root cause seems like a good place to focus our efforts.

  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,694 Senior Member

    @Shawn C. said:
    We should also engage with the Central American countries towards the goal of improving living conditions. American aid should be increased, not decreased as the Trump Administration is doing.

    I don’t have any ideas about how to improve the detention centers but lessening the need for them by addressing the root cause seems like a good place to focus our efforts.

    Shawner---you could be president of Mexico

    A week or so ago I watched former Mexican Prez Fox essentially say the same thing

    He cited that some Mexicans are returning home now from the US as the economy is better and jobs are available---and it's home

    His point was that if the economies further south were to improve---people will stay

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,343 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    AOC called the detention centers along our southern border "Concentration Camps." Obviously this was a deliberate provocation. But is she wrong?

    Not totally.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/academics-rally-behind-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-over-concentration-camp-comments-she-is-completely-historically-accurate/ar-AADls3q?li=BBnb7Kz

    I read this this morning. The one issue I have here is that the historical examples cited as concentration camps (as opposed to the **** death camps) aren't the same as what we have here.

    Historically, so-called concentration camps were used to incarcerate part of the population of the country creating the camps (or some part of the population of a country it conquered). The Jews of Eastern Europe, the Boers, and the Japanese-Americans all fit this example.

    That's not the case here, and that strikes me as a fundamental difference. That doesn't mean that deplorable conditions and deaths are acceptable.

    As for what to do about immigration, I recently read somewhere that the only answer to keep people from coming to the U.S. is to make their homes like the U.S. But Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are failed states run by corrupt governments and powerful criminal gangs.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    @sherb said:

    @Green Mt Boy said:

    1. Amend the law to require requests for asylum be made at a US embassy or consulate in another country or, if made at the border, that entry not be allowed until the request is adjudicated.

    I think this is the problem though. The adjudications take so long and there's such a backlog that they have no choice but to release them and give them a court date, or detain them. I can't even envision how many federal judges you would have to add to clear the backlog. And of course Federal Judge appointments take months just to do the vetting.

    This is a bad situation. right now I'm hoping a combination of government resources and private enterprise (walmart, maybe?) can at least make the situation at the detention centers tolerable.

    https://www.npr.org/2017/11/21/565318778/big-money-as-private-immigrant-jails-boom

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    @Green Mt Boy said:
    The asylum process issue is a tough one. I haven't researched this but my sense is that the original intent was to allow people at risk of political persecution to seek and, if they could prove they were at risk, get asylum. As much as I sympathize with the motive I don't see fleeing grinding poverty or drug gang violence as being the same as fleeing political persecution. It seems to me that the current waves of migrants from Central America are taking advantage of the asylum law by showing up, making an asylum request and then, if we don't have the capacity to hold them and they are therefore released pending adjudication, disappearing into the country. That strikes me as abusing our asylum law and providing an incentive to do so. I suppose we could detain every single asylum seeker pending adjudication but given the huge numbers we'll end up with a lot of expensive concentration camps (which I guess is already the case). I'd rather see the incentive to seek asylum reduced by tightening the law and/or process. Because I sympathize with the desire to escape grinding poverty and/or drug and violence I'm OK with having a fairly liberal quota for legal immigration from Central America. But, as a sovereign nation we are entitled to have control over our borders and if we have an "anything goes" policy the entire population of Central America and probably a good portion of Mexico's population would move to the US, which would IMO simply be too much too fast.

    And I am okay with loosening the law so that people who are being targeted by MS-13 can seek asylum.

    But along with that, we need to treat MS-13 the same way we do ISIS.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,795 Senior Member

    Chris, you want to invade Iraq again?


    ISIS, AQ... all the same a-holes so you get my joke.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    No, I think we should invade Newfoundland.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • magallowaymagalloway Senior Member Posts: 1,020 Senior Member

    Okay, folks, we have children, many just babes-in-arms, packed into inadequate quarters, often being attended by other children, living without soap, washcloths, towels, toothbrushes, or toothpaste (I assume) sleeping on floors under Space Blankets in cold rooms with the lights on twenty-four hours a day. In my book, that sounds like cruel and unusual punishment and would have the ACLU on any county sheriff's **** in about two seconds. Their crime? For the most part, their parents are seeking to get away from grinding poverty or murderous gangs. What would you call it if not being placed in a concentration camp?

    Jim

  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,694 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    No, I think we should invade Newfoundland.

    For the fishing alone!

    Ah--wouldn't mess with them Newfies tho---if ya can drink Screech----your tuff

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,343 Senior Member

    There's a Tiffani Thiesen joke here.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,855 Senior Member
    edited June 25 #24

    What about the American citizens sleeping in human sewage filled streets in the liberal mecca that is California?

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:
    What about the American citizens sleeping in human sewage filled streets in the liberal mecca that is California?

    You do continue to amaze.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    @magalloway said:
    Okay, folks, we have children, many just babes-in-arms, packed into inadequate quarters, often being attended by other children, living without soap, washcloths, towels, toothbrushes, or toothpaste (I assume) sleeping on floors under Space Blankets in cold rooms with the lights on twenty-four hours a day. In my book, that sounds like cruel and unusual punishment and would have the ACLU on any county sheriff's **** in about two seconds. Their crime? For the most part, their parents are seeking to get away from grinding poverty or murderous gangs. What would you call it if not being placed in a concentration camp?

    Jim

    Those babies were just asking for it.

    There is no doubt that part of the strategy here is to make coming here such a nightmare, people will think twice. Conservatives think that is great. Doubt they would think that if these were Canadian babies. But we will never know.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 3,792 Senior Member

    We don't think its "great." what the hell is wrong with you?

    GMB alluded to it above, but it bears repeating. Our asylum process is creating perverse incentives. And people respond to incentives. We have to deal with both the humanitarian issues and the incentives if we want to effectively respond.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member
    edited June 25 #28

    @sherb said:
    We don't think its "great." what the hell is wrong with you?

    GMB alluded to it above, but it bears repeating. Our asylum process is creating perverse incentives. And people respond to incentives. We have to deal with both the humanitarian issues and the incentives if we want to effectively respond.

    You're not a Trump supporter now are you? Hell you don't even count as a conservative anymore. The party has left you.

    Other than George Will, have you noticed any outrage on the right? I mean other than getting all snowflakey over comments made by AOC.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,343 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    We don't think its "great." what the hell is wrong with you?

    GMB alluded to it above, but it bears repeating. Our asylum process is creating perverse incentives. And people respond to incentives. We have to deal with both the humanitarian issues and the incentives if we want to effectively respond.

    Actually, Trump made the very same point on Meet The Press last Saturday, albeit not in such a well-put manner.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,855 Senior Member
    edited June 25 #30

    The boards moving again. You're welcome.

    Comic your insults are meaningless to me. After all that you've directed at me over the years I've yet to rise to one of them. But keep trying man. You're like the Michael Jordan of keyboard badassery.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,708 Senior Member

    I am not insulting you. I am only pointing out your comments are stupid.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan

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