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Interesting read this morning.

MikeAMikeA Senior MemberPosts: 4,835 Senior Member

In the Claremont Review of Books, we have described our current political scene as a cold civil war. A cold civil war is better than a hot civil war, but it is not a good situation for a country to be in. Underlying our cold civil war is the fact that America is torn increasingly between two rival constitutions, two cultures, two ways of life.

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/americas-cold-civil-war/

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Replies

  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 1,076 Senior Member

    Seems to me that the Trumpian ethno-nationalists are the ones who are hung up on identity politics. Seems like they are reacting to the fact that different people--women, people of color--are gaining influence after having been suppressed by white men for generations. I don't know how to classify ethno-nationalists but they aren't leftists.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,977 Senior Member

    I think Kesler on to something (more on that later) and I agree the remedy is a robust federal system. New York and California live as they ought; Alabama and Wyoming as they wish. I've never seen as much anger as I have over the failure of Sasse's "born alive" bill in the Senate. People are openly advocating separation. Obviously that's been tried and found wanting.

    I think Kesler is partially right about this too, but his diagnosis is incomplete:

    As we saw in Bernie Sanders’ campaign, the youngest generation of liberals is embracing socialism openly—something that would have been unheard of during the Cold War. At the same time, identity politics is on the ascendant, with its quasi-Nietzschean faith in race, sex, and power as the keys to being and meaning.

    Both the fringe left and the alt-right suffer from a post-Judeo Christian hangover right now. If Kesler thinks the alt-right don't embrace race, sex and power (as Nietzche predicted they would) he's not paying attention.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,977 Senior Member

    On this though, he's dead on.

    Political scientists sometimes distinguish between normal politics and regime politics. Normal politics takes place within a political and constitutional order and concerns means, not ends. In other words, the ends or principles are agreed upon; debate is simply over means. By contrast, regime politics is about who rules and for what ends or principles. It questions the nature of the political system itself. Who has rights? Who gets to vote? What do we honor or revere together as a people? I fear America may be leaving the world of normal politics and entering the dangerous world of regime politics—a politics in which our political loyalties diverge more and more, as they did in the 1850s, between two contrary visions of the country.

    Managing our vast administrative state is a difference in kind from deciding what kind of a people we should be. The change has been subtle, but its happening. Good diagnosis.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,835 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    On this though, he's dead on.

    Political scientists sometimes distinguish between normal politics and regime politics. Normal politics takes place within a political and constitutional order and concerns means, not ends. In other words, the ends or principles are agreed upon; debate is simply over means. By contrast, regime politics is about who rules and for what ends or principles. It questions the nature of the political system itself. Who has rights? Who gets to vote? What do we honor or revere together as a people? I fear America may be leaving the world of normal politics and entering the dangerous world of regime politics—a politics in which our political loyalties diverge more and more, as they did in the 1850s, between two contrary visions of the country.

    Managing our vast administrative state is a difference in kind from deciding what kind of a people we should be. The change has been subtle, but its happening. Good diagnosis.

    It's been alot less subtle going into 2020... At least the alt right isn't backed by the MSM like the alt left seems to be now.

  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 3,041 Senior Member

    I believe this is happening in many places globally and not just US exclusive

    Tribal political loyalties separating its citizens...and intolerance is the wedge

    I witnessed it even here Re: Civil war and General Lee-----history has spoken but I'm more than sure there is a lot of "Your" citizens that hold Southern values that have varying views on US History

    You do not have to be Pro-slavery to hold those values IMO---but it may be the path of least resistance to paint it that way to get all onside

    It is just up to recent times that statues of Civil war participants were adorned locally---and was not an issue until viewed upon with modern eyes

    So pointing out this simple intolerance of others views and opinions (peacefully) is ample evidence how quickly tribal fires ignite

    Remember we Hanged Louis Riel in 1885 for treason----today we're building him statues---as it took society to draw a breath---take a step back and re-assess its position

    Pretty sure Crazy Horse is being Memorialized ---did the 7th have any input?---but it is an example of moving on as Peoples

    K---M'off my soapbox now

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:

    @sherb said:
    On this though, he's dead on.

    Political scientists sometimes distinguish between normal politics and regime politics. Normal politics takes place within a political and constitutional order and concerns means, not ends. In other words, the ends or principles are agreed upon; debate is simply over means. By contrast, regime politics is about who rules and for what ends or principles. It questions the nature of the political system itself. Who has rights? Who gets to vote? What do we honor or revere together as a people? I fear America may be leaving the world of normal politics and entering the dangerous world of regime politics—a politics in which our political loyalties diverge more and more, as they did in the 1850s, between two contrary visions of the country.

    Managing our vast administrative state is a difference in kind from deciding what kind of a people we should be. The change has been subtle, but its happening. Good diagnosis.

    It's been alot less subtle going into 2020... At least the alt right isn't backed by the MSM like the alt left seems to be now.

    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will be creep....

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    As we saw in Bernie Sanders’ campaign, the youngest generation of liberals is embracing socialism openly—something that would have been unheard of during the Cold War. At the same time, identity politics is on the ascendant, with its quasi-Nietzschean faith in race, sex, and power as the keys to being and meaning.

    You know I can be understanding when the vast unwashed cannot distinguish between a socialist and a democratic socialist, which is why I think that a Bernie ticket is a loser, but it bothers me when it comes from someone that should know better.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    I would argue that we were far more divided in 1969 than we are today. I think this alarmist crap is a great way to sell books, but not much use in getting us into a state where our government is functioning and productive.

    If we want to fix this, bring back a version of the fairness doctrine that applies to cable and get these cable networks to give us a 24 hour news cycle and not a 24 hour argument cycle.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,242 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    You know I can be understanding when the vast unwashed cannot distinguish between a socialist and a democratic socialist, which is why I think that a Bernie ticket is a loser, but it bothers me when it comes from someone that should know better.

    How many times do we have to watch this movie? A democratic governing system and a socialist economic system cannot coexist.

    Or are you trying to suggest that Bernie is not in favor of socialism but of social democracy?

    Democratic socialism isn't the same as social democracy.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    Have you ever heard of the Netherlands?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,242 Senior Member

    It's that place where they wear wooden shoes, am I right?

    The Netherlands doesn't have a socialist economy. It's a social democracy. That's why I asked if you were confused between the two.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,977 Senior Member

    You can't just put the tip in.

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,242 Senior Member

    I've heard that.

    The DSA is a full-fledged socialist organization. In fact it argues that social democracies, once successful, are now failing.

  • creekyguycreekyguy Posts: 361 Senior Member

    Young people sense that wealth and power in the country has been shifted to the elites more and more. They are interested in any program that will make for a fairer system. To compare them to past advocates of leftest politics is innaccurate. They barely know who Groucho was, much less Karl!

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 4,835 Senior Member

    @creekyguy said:
    Young people sense that wealth and power in the country has been shifted to the elites more and more.

    A little off topic...
    But I remember being chastised on here years ago for opposing the offshoring of our country to China. I warned that they were going to build the mightiest military the world has ever seen, and we were going to pay for it. I remember that I was beat down pretty badly for that opinion.

    Now, the people who were responsible have made millions, and even billions of dollars moving companies and manufacturing offshore to China. The common folks got cheap throw away crap from Walmart. Nothing of quality and craftsmanship is made here anymore. Gee Thanks!

    Now the same Government that allowed all this to happen in the first place, are trying to convince everyone that the elites (who they serve)are to blame for all this mess. Suddenly,, China is a problem...

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    @Steven said:
    I've heard that.

    The DSA is a full-fledged socialist organization. In fact it argues that social democracies, once successful, are now failing.

    Is that what Bernie is saying?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    @sherb said:
    You can't just put the tip in.

    Yeah I can see how Canada has gone full on Boleshevik.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 3,041 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:

    @sherb said:
    You can't just put the tip in.

    Yeah I can see how Canada has gone full on Boleshevik.

    That be a big Nyet Comrade------eh?

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,242 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:

    @Steven said:
    I've heard that.

    The DSA is a full-fledged socialist organization. In fact it argues that social democracies, once successful, are now failing.

    Is that what Bernie is saying?

    Beats me. But if he thought social democracy was working, why would Bernie be a socialist?

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,977 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:

    @sherb said:
    You can't just put the tip in.

    Yeah I can see how Canada has gone full on Boleshevik.

    It amusing to see your side change the terms of the debate, so that any economy this side of Singapore is "socialist." Canada is not a socialist country. Denmark is not socialist. Sweden is not socialist. These are market economies with large welfare states. That's not socialism.

    It's also not what Bernie is advocating. He is a socialist.

  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 3,041 Senior Member

    FYI.....Bern has made several trips here to study our medical system

    Let the slingin begin........ :)

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    @Steven said:
    I've heard that.

    The DSA is a full-fledged socialist organization. In fact it argues that social democracies, once successful, are now failing.

    Is that what Bernie is saying?> @sherb said:

    @fishingcomic said:

    @sherb said:
    You can't just put the tip in.

    Yeah I can see how Canada has gone full on Boleshevik.

    It amusing to see your side change the terms of the debate, so that any economy this side of Singapore is "socialist." Canada is not a socialist country. Denmark is not socialist. Sweden is not socialist. These are market economies with large welfare states. That's not socialism.

    It's also not what Bernie is advocating. He is a socialist.

    Funny the way you guys talk about socialized medicine you would think that Canada was a western version of the Soviet Union.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,524 Senior Member

    Given my druthers I would not choose a single payer system where private insurance was banned,but rather an English type system where companies and individuals are free to supplement the NHS with private insurance, and doctors may maintain private practices should they choose to.

    The Canadian system is far from perfect. Three years ago I was in the middle of a two week trip in Canada and needed a medication that I had run out of, luckily not a critical one. I could not get it. There was no way for me to see a doctor to get a script, at least not in small town Nova Scotia because I was not in the national system. It might have been different in a large city, I don't know.

    Also, Bernie may call himsel a socialist, but I have never heard him call for gubbment ownership of the means of production, transport or retailing. Have any of you?

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 3,041 Senior Member

    @George K said:
    Given my druthers I would not choose a single payer system where private insurance was banned,but rather an English type system where companies and individuals are free to supplement the NHS with private insurance, and doctors may maintain private practices should they choose to.

    The Canadian system is far from perfect. Three years ago I was in the middle of a two week trip in Canada and needed a medication that I had run out of, luckily not a critical one. I could not get it. There was no way for me to see a doctor to get a script, at least not in small town Nova Scotia because I was not in the national system. It might have been different in a large city, I don't know.

    Also, Bernie may call himsel a socialist, but I have never heard him call for gubbment ownership of the means of production, transport or retailing. Have any of you?

    Yeah we don't typically leave foreigners on the street to die---pretty sure there's a fee schedule for visitors at most hospitals or travel insurance is another avenue

    Gotta watch dem "Bluenosers"---was this a Monday morning or Friday afternoon? :)

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,242 Senior Member
    edited February 2019 #26

    @fishingcomic said:

    Funny the way you guys talk about socialized medicine you would think that Canada was a western version of the Soviet Union.

    Speaking of Canadians...I'll take straw man arguments for $100, Alex.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,560 Senior Member

    @Steven said:

    @fishingcomic said:

    Funny the way you guys talk about socialized medicine you would think that Canada was a western version of the Soviet Union.

    Speaking of Canadians...I'll take straw man arguments for $100, Alex.

    Here is one for you. "You just can't put in the tip."

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,242 Senior Member

    Single payer is bad economics and makes for a sh itty system but it's not owning the means of production. It's just another system of allocating scarce resources.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,524 Senior Member

    @Bushart said:

    @George K said:
    Given my druthers I would not choose a single payer system where private insurance was banned,but rather an English type system where companies and individuals are free to supplement the NHS with private insurance, and doctors may maintain private practices should they choose to.

    The Canadian system is far from perfect. Three years ago I was in the middle of a two week trip in Canada and needed a medication that I had run out of, luckily not a critical one. I could not get it. There was no way for me to see a doctor to get a script, at least not in small town Nova Scotia because I was not in the national system. It might have been different in a large city, I don't know.

    Also, Bernie may call himsel a socialist, but I have never heard him call for gubbment ownership of the means of production, transport or retailing. Have any of you?

    Yeah we don't typically leave foreigners on the street to die---pretty sure there's a fee schedule for visitors at most hospitals or travel insurance is another avenue

    Gotta watch dem "Bluenosers"---was this a Monday morning or Friday afternoon? :)

    It wasn't an emergency, there was no hospital or doc-in-a-box facility nearby, and the local clinic had no way of accepting me as a paying client.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member

    @George K said:

    It wasn't an emergency, there was no hospital or doc-in-a-box facility nearby, and the local clinic had no way of accepting me as a paying client.

    Can you imagine if that happened to an illegal here? It would be on MSN for weeks!!!!

  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,586 Senior Member

    Time for Nationalism.

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