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Real Working Class Income

George KGeorge K Super ModeratorPosts: 11,691 Senior Member

These easy-to-understand graphs explain more than thousands of words:

Real working class income 1964-2018 tanked under Clinton,has been rising since then, but has yet to equal what it was in1964.

The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
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Replies

  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 5,117 Senior Member

    I don't understand these graphs.

  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 7,027 Senior Member

    You have to mind read to see these graphs.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member

    You guys can't see them? I think you should call your providers.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,691 Senior Member
    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #6

    Plenty of big screen TV's, cell phones and homes with 2 car garages in people lives today. Are we really that bad off George? I really hate how people try to paint this bleak picture of how bad income is in the U.S. when it's really not.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/01/06/the-average-american-today-is-90-times-richer-than-the-average-historical-human-being/#516ac5ca3e6e

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,691 Senior Member

    Comparing 2018 to 1600 is absurd. Let's compare real income in 2018 with real income in 1964.

    From WW II through the 1980s each generation looked forward to a better life than it's parents, at least materially. How many of today's young people will be better off than their parents (or even grandparents) as adults? How many are working two jobs and can't afford to buy a first house?

    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:
    Plenty of big screen TV's, cell phones and homes with 2 car garages in people lives today. Are we really that bad off George? I really hate how people try to paint this bleak picture of how bad income is in the U.S. when it's really not.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/01/06/the-average-american-today-is-90-times-richer-than-the-average-historical-human-being/#516ac5ca3e6e

    And plenty of people that have none of those things. BTW the big screen TV isn't proof, they are cheaper than a 21" color television in the 70's.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member

    @George K said:
    How many of today's young people will be better off than their parents (or even grandparents) as adults?

    I know plenty. How about you?

    @George K said:
    How many are working two jobs and can't afford to buy a first house?

    I know it's anecdotal...but none that I know of in my circle of friends, family, co-workers and other casual acquaintences.

    Seriously. Things are not that bad.

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    And plenty of people that have none of those things. BTW the big screen TV isn't proof, they are cheaper than a 21" color television in the 70's.

    Meh. We are doing fine.

    https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/air-conditioning-cable-tv-and-xbox-what-poverty-the-united-states

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member

    Again just because those things are cheaper does not mean we are making better money.

    https://thinkprogress.org/minimum-wage-workers-cant-afford-rent-anywhere-in-the-country-c313cd648b2b/

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #12

    @fishingcomic said:
    Again just because those things are cheaper does not mean we are making better money.

    https://thinkprogress.org/minimum-wage-workers-cant-afford-rent-anywhere-in-the-country-c313cd648b2b/

    This makes the point of why it's a good idea to better yourself through education and/or some higher skill training...So you don't have to receive minimum wage.

    I mean seriously...What type of person gets done with high school and then thinks to themselves..."I want to spend the rest of my life making minimum wage!!!"

    Making minimum wage should be a temporary thing in someones life. Not a goal.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 6,255 Senior Member

    But have you seen education prices. I get it. Everyone is expected to "educate themselves". At what cost though? A second home mortgage before you even get a job?

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,691 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:

    @George K said:
    How many of today's young people will be better off than their parents (or even grandparents) as adults?

    I know plenty. How about you?

    @George K said:
    How many are working two jobs and can't afford to buy a first house?

    I know it's anecdotal...but none that I know of in my circle of friends, family, co-workers and other casual acquaintences.

    Seriously. Things are not that bad.

    You live a charmed life.

    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #15

    @MikeA said:
    But have you seen education prices. I get it. Everyone is expected to "educate themselves". At what cost though? A second home mortgage before you even get a job?

    Yes. I have 2 kids that went through college in the past 8 years and are now out their own. I'm well aware of what it costs.

    Son racked up $20K+ in college debt and daughter racked $42k+ in college debt. Both are on the 10 year payback plan and doing well for themselves otherwise.

    Daughter just bought a house last year, is raising 2 kids, owns a newer sedan and full size truck. Her husband has zero college education but does have the desire to work and do better than minimum wage and kept bouncing around jobs to find higher pay and achieved that. The willingness to do that is what is lacking in some and why they get stuck at minimum wage jobs.

    Son is a branch manager at a credit union, but currently lives in an apartment because he hasn't decided if he wants to stay in Milwaukee and also drives a newer car.

    The problem is you have to think long term not short term. The potential salary, health insurance benefits, and retirement pay you will receive by educating yourself far far outweighs the debt incurred by doing so.

  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 2,307 Senior Member

    I have two nephews who both went to CU, got their masters and are making really good money, but have huge college debt. My other nephew borrowed some money from his dad and started a portable toilet business right out of high school. He's making more than them put together with no schooling. Just takes some smarts and lot of hard work to make it today.
    He always say "Don't need a college education to count money" which cracks me up.

  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 7,027 Senior Member

    @CO Native said:
    I have two nephews who both went to CU, got their masters and are making really good money, but have huge college debt. My other nephew borrowed some money from his dad and started a portable toilet business right out of high school. He's making more than them put together with no schooling. Just takes some smarts and lot of hard work to make it today.
    He always say "Don't need a college education to count money" which cracks me up.

    Sh1tter’s Full!

    Good for him. Takes balls to start a business.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member

    Not everyone has the acumen for college. Should they just be impoverished? What would Rick Santorum say? You sound like a bunch of snobs.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 7,027 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    Not everyone has the acumen for college. Should they just be impoverished? What would Rick Santorum say? You sound like a bunch of snobs.

    Comic: "Should they just be impoverished?"

    Random Rightwad: "Ummm... I got a follow-up. Are these white or brown people?"

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 6,317 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    Not everyone has the acumen for college. Should they just be impoverished? What would Rick Santorum say? You sound like a bunch of snobs.

    No, that's why I think that we need to expand vocational/trade training and also do what we can to make those jobs not deemed "lower class."

    I know several tradespeople who make way more than I do with a Master's. If my kids want to get a job like that, I will heartily encourage them. They'll probably start working with less debt and might have better earning potential.

  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 2,307 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #21

    @fishingcomic said:
    Not everyone has the acumen for college. Should they just be impoverished? What would Rick Santorum say? You sound like a bunch of snobs.

    Just because you don't have a college degree doesn't mean you have to be poor. I do not have a degree and I make well over 6 figures. Just last week I ran into a kid that went to school with my son, no degree, dumber than a box of rocks (at least grade wise) and he's making $90K a year working in a support role for the oil industry in Cheyenne.

    A friend of mine owns a commercial plumbing company and his entry level pay is $38K and his senior guys are making $80K with benefits. That's far from poverty and you don't need a college education.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 6,255 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #22

    @breamfisher said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    Not everyone has the acumen for college. Should they just be impoverished? What would Rick Santorum say? You sound like a bunch of snobs.

    No, that's why I think that we need to expand vocational/trade training and also do what we can to make those jobs not deemed "lower class."

    I know several tradespeople who make way more than I do with a Master's. If my kids want to get a job like that, I will heartily encourage them. They'll probably start working with less debt and might have better earning potential.

    And this is an area where I have to give Obama a giant Kudos. I believe he was behind the free 2 year vocation school for high school grads.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member

    @breamfisher said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    Not everyone has the acumen for college. Should they just be impoverished? What would Rick Santorum say? You sound like a bunch of snobs.

    No, that's why I think that we need to expand vocational/trade training and also do what we can to make those jobs not deemed "lower class."

    I know several tradespeople who make way more than I do with a Master's. If my kids want to get a job like that, I will heartily encourage them. They'll probably start working with less debt and might have better earning potential.

    You still need people to cook your food, dig ditches, and wash your dishes, should they be impoverished?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #24

    @fishingcomic said:
    Not everyone has the acumen for college. Should they just be impoverished?

    Agreed. But college isn't always necessary.

    The guy my daughter married isn't really the sharpest knife in the drawer and was working 2 jobs...the bowling alley rental center and cooking at the local restaurant on weekends. He soon realized after getting married that those jobs weren't going to cut it and applied for some better jobs. He bounced around between 5 different jobs slowly working his way up at each place until finally settling on one at a local factory with good pay and benefits.

    Just takes a little will and determination.

    U.S. folks are doing just fine. No need to keep being Debbie Downers.

    https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/21/news/economy/upper-middle-class/index.html

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/12/middle-class-income-hit-an-all-time-high-last-year-us-census-says/

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member

    @breamfisher said:

    No, that's why I think that we need to expand vocational/trade training and also do what we can to make those jobs not deemed "lower class."

    I know several tradespeople who make way more than I do with a Master's. If my kids want to get a job like that, I will heartily encourage them. They'll probably start working with less debt and might have better earning potential.

    ^^^This so much.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member

    Should anyone in America who gets up and works 40 hours a week live in poverty?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 6,255 Senior Member

    I'm coming around to the higher min wage idea. To me the current min wage is insulting. The wages they pay wait staff should be illegal. We can and should do better IMO.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 6,255 Senior Member

    Here's why I think we need to seriously up the min wage.
    http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/47037

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 6,317 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:

    You still need people to cook your food, dig ditches, and wash your dishes, should they be impoverished?

    Ah, I see where you're coming from...

    No. Now whether or not some of those jobs need to be "career" you and I will disagree, but I don't think it's germane to the overall conversation. I'd also add some Walmart jobs (if you're working a career job at 40 hrs.a week and on WIC, there's a problem,) even some government jobs (my state pays its wildland firefighters $24,500 starting pay and the average is $27,000.)

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,285 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #30

    @fishingcomic said:
    Should anyone in America who gets up and works 40 hours a week live in poverty?

    No Bernie. That's why it's important to take the initiative and better yourself.

    If you get done with high school and your only motivation in life is to work the cash register at the gas station then maybe you will get stuck living in poverty. It's not like the opportunity doesn't exist somewhere to do better.

    I've always maintained that these low paying jobs are temporary in nature...high school and college kids.

    Seriously Comic...this isn't that difficult. Someone working 40 hours/week at McDonald's should have a hard life. That's precisely the motivation to do better. I know it was for me. I spent the last few years of high school and first few years of college flipping burgers at a restaurant for minimum wage...Something like $3.35/hour back in the late 80's.

    And if a person is working at McDonalds and then decides to pop out a bunch of children while knowing their income status...why should anyone else feel bad about their chronic poor decision making?

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    edited October 2018 #31

    But in the mean time should they starve. Yours is a stupid argument, one does not have to live in poverty to want a better life.

    There are no High School students working the register during school hours.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan

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