This would be an interesting book... if I had time to read...

breamfisherbreamfisher Senior MemberPosts: 4,403 Senior Member

"Against Democracy," by Jason Brennan. Seems he argues that some votes should have more weight based on a person's political knowledge.

https://www.vox.com/2018/7/23/17581394/against-democracy-book-epistocracy-jason-brennan

From the Vox interview: We know that an unfortunate side effect of democracy is that it incentivizes citizens to be ignorant, irrational, tribalistic, and to not use their votes in very serious ways. So this is an attempt to correct for that pathology while keeping what’s good about a democratic system.

Given the rising tribalism I've seen in the past decade or more... I'd say he's right about the central problem.

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Replies

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,403 Senior Member
    edited July 27 #2

    Regarding tribalism, interesting that I got an email from the county Republican party with this in it:

    __Most candidates on your ballot will not be marked with a party affiliation. For many local offices such as judges, city officials, and county offices, there will be no indicator to help you choose the Republican on the ballot.

    But we can help you. Many have been asking us to prepare a guide, and we've done just that. Here is your official Republican Voter Guide for Your County._
    _
    The thing is, most of the positions where I can't find out who the Republican is... are listed as Nonpartisan on the ballot...

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,219 Senior Member

    Sounds like it would be right at home beside Mein Kampf on a bookshelf.

  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 9,920 Senior Member

    Only land owning males should be able to vote. Most of our problems started when we allowed women to vote.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,214 Senior Member
    edited July 27 #5

    @MikeA said:
    Sounds like it would be right at home beside Mein Kampf on a bookshelf.

    With a textbook on eugenics alongside them.

    Or, as Obi-Wan would say, looked at in another way perhaps what he means is that other than names picked randomly by ignorant voters, which votes would be evenly scattered, although perhaps favoring those at the top of the list, votes cast by people who bothered to learn about the candidates and issues would carry more weight.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,707 Senior Member

    Now on top of needing voter ID...Only those with the most political knowledge can vote?

    Sounds like voter supression to me. ;)

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,219 Senior Member

    The interview I watched about this guy he used Trump as his example.
    However, a lot of people attended the Trump rally's to learn about the candidate. I don't remember ever seeing candidates filling super stadiums and lining people around them outside for a POTUS in my lifetime. Guess that doesn't count as learning about your candidate.

  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,403 Senior Member

    @George K said:

    Or, as Obi-Wan would say, looked at in another way perhaps what he means is that other than names picked randomly by ignorant voters, which votes would be evenly scattered, although perhaps favoring those at the top of the list, votes cast by people who bothered to learn about the candidates and issues would carry more weight.

    That's what I got.

    Interestingly enough, it's actually kind of hard to find out what a candidate stands for these days. I've been researching candidates for the various primary elections in my area, but most of their websites ask me to sign up as a volunteer or a donor, and very few talk about the actual issues. Several offer biographies, but again no actual statements on basic issues.

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,214 Senior Member

    The TV and print ads here this year consisted of three types - "I'm More Trump Than Trump", "I'll Help Stop Trump" or "The Usual Meaningless Platitudes About God, Country, Community And Family". OTOH couple of local GOP primaries got so entertainingly nasty and personal that the Dems received a ton of free oppo research - PFA orders, unpaid child support, a previous election fraud conviction and the like. But that district is so safely Republican that the Dem still probably will lose by a large margin.

    One or two actually were amusing if silly; like the Dem candidate, a retired Colonel, shown burning sections of an "assault rifle" in his back yard to demonstrate where he stands on gun control.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 776 Senior Member

    Brennan is right that there is a lot of "ignorant, irrational, tribalistic" behavior going on, but that has always been the case through out our history, and it cuts across the political spectrum. I am slowly making my way through Ron Chernow's biography of Alexander Hamilton and it is clear Hamilton foresaw what Brennan describes. Because of that Hamilton was accused of being a monarchist, which he wasn't--after all, before their falling out he and James Madison essentially wrote the Constitution. But, once the dust settled on the enactment of the Constitution Hamilton on the one hand and Jefferson and Madison on the other hand got right into squabbling with a vengeance and things devolved into a lot of ignorance, irrationality and tribalism.

  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 2,840 Senior Member

    Starship troopers. The ultimate quasi-fascistic novel.

  • creekyguycreekyguy Posts: 197 Senior Member

    A voter may be uneducated or own no land, but he knows if he's jobless, or hungry, or homeless, or being abused by police or bureaucrats, or if his kids aren't getting a decent education.
    End of argument. Unless you want to look out your window and see the proverbial torches and pitchforks.
    Another way of looking at it: the great unwashed simply act as a veto machine to the establishment when they inevitably screw it up.

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,707 Senior Member

    The majority of people vote with their wallets...

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:
    Now on top of needing voter ID...Only those with the most political knowledge can vote?

    Sounds like voter supression to me. ;)

    Sounds ripe for the Republican Party platform.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member
    edited July 28 #15

    @MikeA said:
    The interview I watched about this guy he used Trump as his example.
    However, a lot of people attended the Trump rally's to learn about the candidate. I don't remember ever seeing candidates filling super stadiums and lining people around them outside for a POTUS in my lifetime. Guess that doesn't count as learning about your candidate.

    You're are kidding right?

    BTW when did Trump fill a stadium?

    And no that does not count as learning about your candidate. Especially one that lies as easily as Donald Trump

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,214 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:
    The majority of people vote with their wallets...

    And they get what they pay for - bad schools, crumbling infrastructure and insufficient police and fire service in many areas etc.

    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    @George K said:

    @NZ Indicator said:
    The majority of people vote with their wallets...

    And they get what they pay for - bad schools, crumbling infrastructure and insufficient police and fire service in many areas etc.

    That doesn't happen in their neighborhoods, so they don't care.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,707 Senior Member

    @George K said:

    @NZ Indicator said:
    The majority of people vote with their wallets...

    And they get what they pay for - bad schools, crumbling infrastructure and insufficient police and fire service in many areas etc.

    That happens.

  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,219 Senior Member
    edited July 31 #19

    @fishingcomic said:

    @George K said:

    @NZ Indicator said:
    The majority of people vote with their wallets...

    And they get what they pay for - bad schools, crumbling infrastructure and insufficient police and fire service in many areas etc.

    That doesn't happen in their neighborhoods, so they don't care.

    Like Detroit?

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member
    edited July 31 #20

    Right, you don't care about Detroit because it is full of brown people. In fact you believe that is the reason why they have failing schools, poor police protection and crumbling infrastructure. If white people lived there, you think they wouldn't have those problems.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,219 Senior Member

    Didn't they vote?

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    Didn't you vote to take away all federal funding?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,219 Senior Member

    Nope.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    Sure ya did, you voted for Trump.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,219 Senior Member
    edited July 31 #25

    The POTUS is responsible for Detroit? D amn,Obama poisoned all those children.

    Trump signs budget bill with $300 million for the Great Lakes
    https://www.greatlakesnow.org/2018/03/trump-signs-budget-bill-with-300-million-for-the-great-lakes/

  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,707 Senior Member
    edited July 31 #26

    @fishingcomic said:
    Right, you don't care about Detroit because it is full of brown people. In fact you believe that is the reason why they have failing schools, poor police protection and crumbling infrastructure. If white people lived there, you think they wouldn't have those problems.

    Must be all of that democratic rule...

    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/how-decades-of-democratic-rule-ruined-some-of-our-finest-cities/

    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1880

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    @MikeA said:
    The POTUS is responsible for Detroit? D amn,Obama poisoned all those children.

    Trump signs budget bill with $300 million for the Great Lakes
    https://www.greatlakesnow.org/2018/03/trump-signs-budget-bill-with-300-million-for-the-great-lakes/

    So you don't understand the difference between local community funding and federal funding?

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    @NZ Indicator said:

    @fishingcomic said:
    Right, you don't care about Detroit because it is full of brown people. In fact you believe that is the reason why they have failing schools, poor police protection and crumbling infrastructure. If white people lived there, you think they wouldn't have those problems.

    Must be all of that democratic rule...

    https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/how-decades-of-democratic-rule-ruined-some-of-our-finest-cities/

    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1880

    Google redlining.

    I think if white people lived there they would get more federal funding and the reason why you don't care about Detroit is because they are not white.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    BTW it was not the poor black people that destroyed Detroit or the government. It was the White men that ran the auto industry into the ground.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,707 Senior Member

    @fishingcomic said:
    I think if white people lived there they would get more federal funding

    How much more should they get and why would white people make a difference?

    and the reason why you don't care about Detroit is because they are not white.

    I don't care about Detroit because it's too peopley for me.

    I like how you always assume everything is about color.

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,460 Senior Member

    I like how you keep railing against places with large minority populations.

    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
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