Honest question

135

Replies

  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    A heroic statue of a murderer on a horse is a celebration plain and simple. Unless of course you place a plaque talking about what a murdering monster he was, then I guess that is a compromise.

    Not sure on this

    If it's there you can talk about it----but I really cannot see some kid with his nose in an i-pad thinking about history unless it bites him in the ****--or in this case---a large statue you have to walk around
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,425 Senior Member
    In 1936 the **** were a fringe organization.


    Uhmmmmm.....what?
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    Well when someone wants to erect a statue to Custer we can discuss it. But you want to celebrate treasonous criminals all so you can terrorize African-Americans.

    You need to calm down. Seriously.

    This kind of overheated BS is gonna get us another four years of the Donald.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,860 Senior Member
    Joe And Mike,
    No one wants to bury history. Do you think the Jews want to ever forget about the hells of WWI era Europe? Do you think that African Americans want to forget their past struggles? Do you think Japanese Americans want to forget about he interment camps?
    What we are talking about is not erasing history. These things are statues. Please guys, don't conflate this with book burning and 'people's feelings being hurt.'
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,860 Senior Member
    Also, screw those seditious ****. When I see a statue of Robert E. Lee you know what I see? A traitor.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,311 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    Also, screw those seditious ****. When I see a statue of Robert E. Lee you know what I see? A traitor.

    Traitor to what? A twentieth century ideal of what the United States is? Didn't he turn down the president's offer to lead the Union Army because he couldn't/wouldn't fight against his native Virginians?
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,860 Senior Member
    Dude, sorry!
    I was just making a snarky comment to dig at you. It wasn't meant to be an insult.
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    Now I'm getting confused....

    We're talking about statues as symbols that evoke emotion--I get that---but is looking the other way the right idea??----You don't have to praise these statues as heroes---but they can open the conversation to heal

    Not being at the table is no way to strike a deal

    How bout Ole Glory--ya know the flag---was it not charged into Little Big Horn and the Like---Does it not evoke strong emotion?---Are you prepared to strike it down as the VERY symbol that went into battle against the oppressed---the literal rallying cry

    Hey....I hate Custer.....My family fought the ****---but it may get hard to cherry pick the symbols of history you wish to evaporate---it seems like a child closing their eyes tight----If I don't look---your not there
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,311 Senior Member
    No, I didn't take it that way at all. Honestly.

    And I'm not taking a "state's rights, not slavery"argument either. I'm just suggesting that, in all the hubbub, we not view 1860s politics with 21st century views.

    Could it be, in fact, that R.E. Lee (peace be upon him) thought that fighting against his State was actually the more treasonous route?
  • Green Mt BoyGreen Mt Boy Senior Member Posts: 1,016 Senior Member
    The fact that distinguishes Custer from, say, Robert E. Lee, is that people are not using symbols of Custer's "cause" as part of a hate message like the white supremacists in Charlottesville. This point relates to NZ's post, responding to one I made, about the need to move on from history. I agree with that sentiment. But that is not the case with the present situation--the current day racists have adopted the statutes and monuments about the Confederacy as their symbols. We are not talking about hurting the feelings of a few snowflakes but instead symbols of past and present hatred against a very substantial portion of the nation's population. The Confederacy looms large in our history and Confederate statutes and monuments are entirely appropriate at places like Gettysburg where that history played out. But, at places like a city park in a country that is supposedly about equality of all people-no.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,860 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    No, I didn't take it that way at all. Honestly.

    And I'm not taking a "state's rights, not slavery"argument either. I'm just suggesting that, in all the hubbub, we not view 1860s politics with 21st century views.

    Could it be, in fact, that R.E. Lee (peace be upon him) thought that fighting against his State was actually the more treasonous route?

    That is a good point. Allegiance to one's state was something that was much, much stronger pre-war.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    The fact that distinguishes Custer from, say, Robert E. Lee, is that people are not using symbols of Custer's "cause" as part of a hate message like the white supremacists in Charlottesville. This point relates to NZ's post, responding to one I made, about the need to move on from history. I agree with that sentiment. But that is not the case with the present situation--the current day racists have adopted the statutes and monuments about the Confederacy as their symbols.

    That's why they've got to go.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    You know, I'm struck by a thought: Buffy, me, Comic, Shawn, MikeA, Steven, even Joe K. . . we're more alike then different. These guys aren't enemies. Yes, they have political differences, but they aren't out shouting "kill all the Jews" or calling Ivanka Trump a race traitor for marrying a Jewish guy, all of which happened on Saturday. We perhaps disagree on methods or even on the substance, but we share the same values, worship the same God, have the same hobbies. . .and hate the same enemy. Just something to think about.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 7,998 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Could it be, in fact, that R.E. Lee (peace be upon him) thought that fighting against his State was actually the more treasonous route?
    Possibly, but his state and others fought against the "non-slave-holding" states and union that the southern states dropped out of. Treason?
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,927 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    You know, I'm struck by a thought: Buffy, me, Comic, Shawn, MikeA, Steven, even Joe K. . . we're more alike then different. These guys aren't enemies. Yes, they have political differences, but they aren't out shouting "kill all the Jews" or calling Ivanka Trump a race traitor for marrying a Jewish guy, all of which happened on Saturday. We perhaps disagree on methods or even on the substance, but we share the same values, worship the same God, have the same hobbies. . .and hate the same enemy. Just something to think about.

    Here here. I harbor no ill will towards anyone here despite differences. I wish everyone was more open to political discussion without drawing lines in the sand. I've learned much from you guys. Reading posts from you in particular often makes me reflect on my own opinions. I enjoy the back and forth from comic and as I've said before, some of those have softened my stance on issues. Talking about issues is how they get solved. People need to relearn how to talk to people instead of talking at them.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,311 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    You know, I'm struck by a thought: Buffy, me, Comic, Shawn, MikeA, Steven, even Joe K. . . we're more alike then different. These guys aren't enemies. Yes, they have political differences, but they aren't out shouting "kill all the Jews" or calling Ivanka Trump a race traitor for marrying a Jewish guy, all of which happened on Saturday. We perhaps disagree on methods or even on the substance, but we share the same values, worship the same God, have the same hobbies. . .and hate the same enemy. Just something to think about.

    You sissies can keep your water whipping fishing though. I fish like the Good Lord intended. With worms.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,311 Senior Member
    FishTX wrote: »
    Possibly, but his state and others fought against the "non-slave-holding" states and union that the southern states dropped out of. Treason?

    Not to him. And had the South won..... No?
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,927 Senior Member
    Good article on the topic.

    I think it’s too costly to refight the Civil War. We have paid too great a price in trying to bring people together,” Young said. “I personally feel that we made a mistake in fighting over the Confederate flag here in Georgia. Or that that was an answer to the problem of the death of nine people – to take down the Confederate flag in South Carolina.”

    Specifically, Young was speaking of Gov. Roy Barnes’ 2001 decision to pull down the 1956 state flag that prominently featured the Confederate battle emblem. The move was a primary reason Barnes lost his bid for re-election. The issue split the state Democratic party, and ushered in the current season of Republican rule.

    “It cost us $14.9 billion and 70,000 jobs that would have gone with the Affordable Care Act (via Medicaid expansion) – which we probably would have had if we hadn’t been fighting over a flag,” Young said. “I am always interested in substance over symbols. If the truth be known, we’ve had as much agony – but also glory, under the United States flag. That flew over segregated America. It flew over slavery.”

    http://www.myajc.com/news/stone-mountain-and-the-bargaining-behind-southern-history/5MF32R10JslaicCsAgnrPN/
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,917 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Not to him. And had the South won..... No?

    Had they won they would have been no less treasonous or any more moral in their cause. They still sought to enslave their fellow human beings and destroy the Republic.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,917 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    You need to calm down. Seriously.

    This kind of overheated BS is gonna get us another four years of the Donald.

    Do you think they would ever vote for someone else? He is their shining star. He is everything they ever dreamed of. Now they can say what is truly in their hearts and not pretend to think that black people are not inferior.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,425 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    Joe And Mike,
    No one wants to bury history. Do you think the Jews want to ever forget about the hells of WWI era Europe?

    Uhmmmm.....what?
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Uhmmmm.....what?

    Yeah caught that as well

    "Was it over when the germans bombed Pearl Harbour"
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 2,824 Senior Member
    Also I get the problem is not the statue itself but the **** rally round it

    All of my life statues have been basically pigeon fodder and a place to sit by and have a coffee

    So if they gotta go--maybe it's evolution?

    I do think it closes the conversation tho----like for a few maybe's

    So if people walk by a statue of Lee...Maybe they could say good thing the dark days of slavery are gone----But how far up the ladder from slavery is Human Trafficking---migrant field workers---illegal nannies/gardeners/housekeepers
    Maybe we should fix that

    Or Maybe they could say---The civil war was so bloody and brutal---we should never engage in violence again over differing political views----Then you turn on the news and see Virginia
    Maybe we should fix that

    Or how about in our country---we have a statue of Edward Cornwallis ---he offered a bounty paid for native scalps----I think if it stayed it would be a reminder what an **** he was and help understand the plight of some peoples and the work that needs to be done moving forward

    But I get it---confederate statues are a direct white Supremacist link
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,927 Senior Member
    Do you think they would ever vote for someone else? He is their shining star. He is everything they ever dreamed of. Now they can say what is truly in their hearts and not pretend to think that black people are not inferior.

    Do you honestly believe half of the stuff you post on here? Because if you do, you must despise roughly half of the people in this country that you think fit the stereotype you post about on here.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,917 Senior Member
    He only has the support of about 24% of the nation at this point. And you reinforce those beliefs with about 50% of your posts.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,927 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    Joe And Mike,
    No one wants to bury history. Do you think the Jews want to ever forget about the hells of WWI era Europe? Do you think that African Americans want to forget their past struggles? Do you think Japanese Americans want to forget about he interment camps?
    What we are talking about is not erasing history. These things are statues. Please guys, don't conflate this with book burning and 'people's feelings being hurt.'

    Apple, LinkedIn, Spotify and Twitter have joined a growing chorus of technology companies to hit out at the far right
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/17/apple-denounces-neo-****-as-spotify-bans-white-power-tracks

    Facebook, Airbnb Go on Offense Against Neo-**** After Violence
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-17/facebook-airbnb-go-on-offense-against-neo-****-after-violence
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,917 Senior Member
    Twitter has removed accounts affiliated with neo-**** site the Daily Stormer, which lost its domain registration earlier this week.

    Oh no, where will you get your news now?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • MikeAMikeA Senior Member Posts: 3,927 Senior Member
    Twitter has removed accounts affiliated with neo-**** site the Daily Stormer, which lost its domain registration earlier this week.

    Oh no, where will you get your news now?

    You're ridiculous accusations have never riled me up after all these years dude. Give it up.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    He only has the support of about 24% of the nation at this point. And you reinforce those beliefs with about 50% of your posts.

    How to lose an election in three easy steps:

    1. Call everybody a racist.
    2. Bemoan the fact that Middle America is this vast wasteland full of ****.
    3. Wonder aloud in a million different thinkpieces, "why can't liberals talk to regular Americans?"

    You know, I'm on your side on the ****. Its disgusting. I'll bet most Republicans are. You're not helping by calling everybody a racist. It alienates potential allies, at least as to this issue.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction.

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Fly Fisherman stories delivered right to your inbox.