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Trump Dicked This One Up...

jbillyjbilly Senior MemberPosts: 5,605 Senior Member
As one of the few here who voted for him (maybe the only one to admit it) I'm more than willing to call him out when needed....

And he dicked this one up bigly.

I don't have a problem with what I believe he intended to do. He can keep those from certain countries out, without making it some religious ban, personally I believe he missed several countries on his list. But I digress.

He (and I do get he didn't write the EO himself, but someone screwed up and didn't vet it at all) made an awful mistake when he had people with green cards turned away. They can be here and have already been vetted. I highly doubt there was ever any actual procedure for the attempt at further vetting at embassies or consulates.

It sounds like they might be "fixing" that now, but I think they have already shot themselves in the foot.


McCain and Graham summed it up pretty nicely here.....
http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=587F2A2D-8A47-48F7-9045-CF30F0A77889
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Replies

  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    It has been noted that he left Arab countries where he has business interests off the list..

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 3,041 Senior Member
    The buzz flyin in the media today is that he has made the US a bigger target----now having radical Islam pointing to the Muslim general population that this is proof that America hates them

    I guess these presidential orders may be easy to sign----but they do have issues when put into play
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    Bushart wrote: »
    The buzz flyin in the media today is that he has made the US a bigger target----now having radical Islam pointing to the Muslim general population that this is proof that America hates them

    I guess these presidential orders may be easy to sign----but they do have issues when put into play

    the science of terrorism is a lot less established and deterministic than, say, predicting the thermodynamics of a chemical reaction -- but for a few years I helped lead a social science initiative on the roots and prevention of terrorism at one of our nation's top national Labs. I am not an expert on the topic but I spent a lot of time working with people who were. And I am quite certain that this order has not helped our cause one iota. In one week he's probably spawned more radicalization and created more future threat than he will prevent.
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 3,041 Senior Member
    the science of terrorism is a lot less established and deterministic than, say, predicting the thermodynamics of a chemical reaction -- but for a few years I helped lead a social science initiative on the roots and prevention of terrorism at one of our nation's top national Labs. I am not an expert on the topic but I spent a lot of time working with people who were. And I am quite certain that this order has not helped our cause one iota. In one week he's probably spawned more radicalization and created more future threat than he will prevent.

    Yeah not a good idea to give them cause or a flag to rally around
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    National Review, is that like Breitbart Lite??

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,605 Senior Member

    Are some things being overblown, like calling it a Muslim ban, IMO yes,

    But the whole green card thing was a colossal f&^% up, that cannot be denied or glossed over.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,605 Senior Member
    a lot less established and deterministic than, say, predicting the thermodynamics of a chemical reaction

    ****!!! Its not like I some faux scientist like a geologist ;)
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 4,093 Senior Member
    ...........Ouch!

    Lindsey Graham
    "It is clear from the confusion at our airports across the nation that President Trump’s executive order was not properly vetted. We are particularly concerned by reports that this order went into effect with little to no consultation with the Departments of State, Defense, Justice, and Homeland Security.”


    "The joint statement of former presidential candidates John McCain & Lindsey Graham is wrong - they are sadly weak on immigration," Trump said.
    "The two ... Senators should focus their energies on ISIS, illegal immigration and border security instead of always looking to start World War III."

    Well, that should smooth things over.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,749 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    Are some things being overblown, like calling it a Muslim ban, IMO yes,

    But the whole green card thing was a colossal f&^% up, that cannot be denied or glossed over.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/politics/white-house-official-in-reversal-says-green-card-holders-wont-be-barred.html?_r=0
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,605 Senior Member

    Yes had seen that and addressed it in opening post. Glad they fixed it. But that horse already got out of the barn. Who ever reviewed the original EO and either didn't have this or took it out really screwed the pooch. By having this even for one day it gave people, rightfully so, a lot of ammo in arguing he went too far. I think people would have still been fired up but really they wouldn't have had much of an argument as it is in his power to do what EO now says. But with the original version that blew it you can bet your **** they aren't going to let it go now.

    I read a peace that said the corrected EO is pretty much the same thing obama did about Iraq and no one went nuts then. Had the original EO done that I'd think those composing would look pretty silly if they hadn't complained then. Now with the f up. Not so much.

    Trump -1.
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,402 Senior Member
    Some sources have said Bannon likely wrote the EO. Could have something to do with little vetting before it got signed.


    Speaking of Bannon, he now has a seat at the NSC while the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the director of national intelligence will sit in only when their “responsibilities and expertise” are related to the meeting.
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,605 Senior Member
    I hadn't heard he wrote it but that they over ruled DHS on the green card issue and put it in. They had removed it.

    Which us is very interesting. Say what ever about his beliefs and if he's a racist but he is anything but stupid. Did he do this just to get people to go nuts? Kind of like the 20% on Mexican imports. Was this ultra extreme just to whittle it down knowing that no matter what people would scream.
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    I hadn't heard he wrote it but that they over ruled DHS on the green card issue and put it in. They had removed it.

    Which us is very interesting. Say what ever about his beliefs and if he's a racist but he is anything but stupid. Did he do this just to get people to go nuts? Kind of like the 20% on Mexican imports. Was this ultra extreme just to whittle it down knowing that no matter what people would scream.


    I sincerely think that Bannon is fitting in what he can of his white supremacist views from the position of power he's been granted. The administration made no apologies for whitewashing the mention of Jews from the Holocaust remembrance proclomation yesterday. they did it under the faux cover of "inclusiveness" but I think there's a more sinister message there. You're right, Bannon is not stupid. Evil, yes -- but not stupid. And he's apparently having his way with Trump as much as Putin has.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,534 Senior Member
    Trump is a pandering p****. If he really thought this **** was a good idea, Saudi Arabia would be on that list. He just wants to be adored by the ignorant masses that hate Muslims.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    Trump is a pandering p****. If he really thought this **** was a good idea, Saudi Arabia would be on that list. He just wants to be adored by the ignorant masses that hate Muslims.

    I think that it's somewhat more nuanced than that, and I refuse to believe that every person who voted for him is either ignorant or racist.

    I DO think that he wants to be seen as a "man of action" -- and that he counts on TAKING action -- any action -- being more important than the action being the right one or well thought out.

    I do think that he plays to people's fears, even if those fears are far out of proportion to the risk. And I think he's as clueless as he seems with respect to understanding what the impacts of his actions will actually be. He's in way over his head in this job, and it's showing early on.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,534 Senior Member
    No but there is a significant segment. Remember that those fears are based on prejudice. I do think most people who voted for him bought the whole, "you will get tired of winning" malarkey and were voting against previous trade agreements.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 5,221 Senior Member
    FishTX wrote: »
    Some sources have said Bannon likely wrote the EO. Could have something to do with little vetting before it got signed.


    Speaking of Bannon, he now has a seat at the NSC while the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the director of national intelligence will sit in only when their “responsibilities and expertise” are related to the meeting.
    Notice how little press the NSC shuffle has been getting? Does anyone wonder why the moves were made about the same time as the new immigration order? Coincidence?
  • swizzswizz Senior Member Posts: 2,570 Senior Member
    Trump made Chuck Schumer cry like a baby. That's not very nice.
    All of your Trout are belong to me.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member

    I DO think that he wants to be seen as a "man of action" -- and that he counts on TAKING action -- any action -- being more important than the action being the right one or well thought out.

    I definitely think that's what is going on here. There's tremendous pressure to just do something, anything, and then fix the problems later. But with planes literally in the air, you can't do that. The failure to vet with the impacted federal agencies was bad enough, but the lack of even OLC oversight means the justice department's attorneys were unable to even defend the EO in court.

    Verdict: substantive impact-unknown, but negligible in the long term. Political value: high. implementation: disastrous.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,518 Senior Member
    substantive impact-unknown, but negligible in the long term.

    Could be quite serious in the long term by creating a huge disincentive for people like interpreters and other local hires to work with our military, and by having given anti-U.S. groups free recruiting propaganda material on a silver platter. This Administration really isn't ready for prime time, and with Trump at the helm being advised by Bannon and Conway it may never be.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    substantive impact-unknown, but negligible in the long term.

    Could be quite serious in the long term by creating a huge disincentive for people like interpreters and other local hires to work with our military, and by having given anti-U.S. groups free recruiting propaganda material on a silver platter. This Administration really isn't ready for prime time, and with Trump at the helm being advised by Bannon and Conway it may never be.

    I think the interpreter/local hire issue will be fixed, as will the green card fiasco, if it hasn't already. It won't end up looking much different than any other EO related to refugees.

    But the rollout has been a disaster-unless your goal is the rollout itself.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,518 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    I think the interpreter/local hire issue will be fixed, as will the green card fiasco, if it hasn't already. It won't end up looking much different than any other EO related to refugees.

    But the rollout has been a disaster-unless your goal is the rollout itself.

    Perhaps.

    BTW - Putting Bannon on the inner circle of the NSC while removing the Director of National Intelligence and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is frightening, and I choose that word thoughtfully.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    swizz wrote: »
    Trump made Chuck Schumer cry like a baby. That's not very nice.


    He also got our normally calm, boring, no-drama governor to speak up and speak passionately -- hell, he even got my normally "don't rock the boat" conservative Republican congressman to speak out against him.

    he definitely pissed off a lot of people.

    Which can be justified, sometimes, if what you're doing is for the good of the country.

    Arguably, this was not.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 25,534 Senior Member
    Best recruiting advertisement ISIS could ask for, that and we will steal the Iraqi oil.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,234 Senior Member
    Better than men, dressing as women, using women's bathrooms?

    Which brings me to my real point...just about everything that happens in America can be used as a recruiting advertisement for radical Islam. It's not a meaningful point of argument.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »

    Which brings me to my real point...just about everything that happens in America can be used as a recruiting advertisement for radical Islam. It's not a meaningful point of argument.

    Agree. See e.g., Greeley Colorado in the 1950's, that hotbed of licentiousness and vice.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 4,969 Senior Member
    https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz

    Scroll down. Lots of relevant info.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 4,234 Senior Member
    Maybe this is a generalization...but it seems to me that it's never the actual immigrants that perpetrate the actions Trump is trying to stop. It's always their kids, and many times the kids are born here.

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