So why is it....

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Replies

  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,693 Senior Member
    The historical argument has some emotional validity, the lines won by war one not so much if we to agree that modern day international law has any meaning at all. I think it was Mark Twain who observed that there isn't a square foot of land on earth that belongs to the rightful owner. By your analogy the Celts would have a claim to much of Europe and Johnnies Come Earlier (AKA Native Americans) to all of the Western Hemisphere.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,195 Senior Member
    The point wasn't that the Israelis had a legal claim through war, only that Israel was not created by some international entity.

    The Basques have a better claim to their own country than do the Palestinians.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,322 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    No, I don't. We should start breaking ground on an embassy in West Jerusalem on January 21st.

    And if the Arabs don't like it, tough. Shale means never having to kiss their **** again.

    See you do know the answer. You just don't care. I suspect that like Bibi you hold nothing but hate in your heart for the Palestinians.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,693 Senior Member
    I agree with Kerry (and Obama it would seem) that a two state solution is the only way Israel ever will live in peace. For that to happen the past has to be put aside and an equitable redrawing of parts of the map has to occur. This probably would require relinquishing some settlements while retaining others.

    The core problem is that until Palestinians believe they have a stake in a peaceful relationship with Israel their will be no peace, and that Netanyahu does everything possible to ensure that they see no reason to believe that. The majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,195 Senior Member
    I still don't know why we don't. I know why we didn't.

    And you know what? I really doubt it would **** off the Arabs. They'd make a little show, but that's just for acting.
    The Saudi's, Jordanians, and Egyptians know there's no way Israel gives up West Jerusalem unless there's no Israel, and they already failed at that. So really, besides a couple of speeches, that would be about it.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,195 Senior Member
    Netanyahu is a four-time democratically elected Prime Minister. He's not a dictator. He's not Putin. He's not Raul Castro.

    He clearly has the support of the Israeli people. If the Prime Minister doesn't think a two-state solution is truly workable, it's because the Israeli people don't think it's workable.

    The core problem is Jerusalem. Over 80% of Israelis believe all of Jerusalem is their capital. That's similar across age groups and degree of religion. Both Barak and Olmert lost support following peace plans that included turning over some part of Jerusalem to the PLA.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    I still don't know why we don't. I know why we didn't.

    And you know what? I really doubt it would **** off the Arabs. They'd make a little show, but that's just for acting.
    The Saudi's, Jordanians, and Egyptians know there's no way Israel gives up West Jerusalem unless there's no Israel, and they already failed at that. So really, besides a couple of speeches, that would be about it.

    If it was just about a Palestinian State, you are probably right. As soon as you throw Jerusalem into the mix, it becomes about Religion and that throws all logic out the window. I really don't see any hope for peace for a long long time.

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,693 Senior Member
    From my post No. 51: "Israel will never give up Jerusalem, but free access to religious sites for all probably has to figure in any long term accord. How to do that will be the tricky part. In any case, ain't gonna happen anytime soon."

    This is indeed one of the main sticking points and no one has figured out a way to address it.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,195 Senior Member
    My point was more about Netanyahu not being a dictator.

    Anyway, it's called a passport. If Canadians can come here to get medical care, Arabs should be able to go to the Temple Mount. This assumes, of course, peaceful states that respect each other's continued existence.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,693 Senior Member
    No one said Netanyahu is a dictator. What Kerry said is that the path he has taken is not conducive to Israel remaining a democracy in the long run.

    My Israeli diplomatic colleagues used to bristle at the suggestion that Israel was beginning to resemble old South Africa's Apartheid system, or worse, it's phony Homelands, but their explanations of why the comparison was wrong always rang hollow. It was like when American diplomats tried to explain away poverty, race riots and voter suppression.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,322 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    I still don't know why we don't. I know why we didn't.

    And you know what? I really doubt it would **** off the Arabs. They'd make a little show, but that's just for acting.
    The Saudi's, Jordanians, and Egyptians know there's no way Israel gives up West Jerusalem unless there's no Israel, and they already failed at that. So really, besides a couple of speeches, that would be about it.

    You don't build a Embassy in disputed territory period, end of story. It would de-ligitimize us as honest peace brokers and you know that. You just want Israel to have an undisputed claim.

    If Israel wants that, the answer is simply, a treaty with two independent states and a permanent border.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,195 Senior Member
    West Jerusalem is not disputed. Period.
    It's a fact. End of story.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,195 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    No one said Netanyahu is a dictator. What Kerry said is that the path he has taken is not conducive to Israel remaining a democracy in the long run.

    The path "he" has taken. There's no "He." There's the Israeli people. "He" is a PM. "He" can't take a path separate from the Israeli people.
    George K wrote: »
    My Israeli diplomatic colleagues used to bristle at the suggestion that Israel was beginning to resemble old South Africa's Apartheid system, or worse, it's phony Homelands, but their explanations of why the comparison was wrong always rang hollow. It was like when American diplomats tried to explain away poverty, race riots and voter suppression.

    This is nonsense and ignores the facts. There is no apartheid in what is recognized internationally as Israel.
    The occupied territories are militarily occupied.
  • CuddyCuddy Senior Member Posts: 344 Senior Member
    Such a shame, all this fighting and bombings and wars and killing over the centuries, all because of an invisible man who lives in the sky.
    I know, I know that's a gross oversimplification of the Israeli conflict, but just a general comment, not specific to Israel, on how "God" makes some people want to kill each other (or gives them an excuse to anyways).
  • swizzswizz Senior Member Posts: 2,559 Senior Member
    Cuddy wrote: »
    Such a shame, all this fighting and bombings and wars and killing over the centuries, all because of an invisible man who lives in the sky.
    Sky? My invisible God lives in the water, and his name is................... Loghova.
    All of your Trout are belong to me.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,693 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    There is no apartheid in what is recognized internationally as Israel.
    The occupied territories are militarily occupied.

    Are you seriously saying that Israeli Arabs, be they Muslim, Christian or whatever enjoy precisely the same rights, privileges and freedoms as Israeli Jews, both in law and in fact?
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,195 Senior Member
    In law, absolutely?
    Arabs get to vote, did South African Blacks?
    Arabs have MPs, did South African Blacks?
    Arabs have their own political parties, did South African Blacks?

    Jews and Arabs can and do mix freely in malls, restaurants, roads, etc.

    Nobody in their right mind would say there's not discrimination, but to suggest it's apartheid is complete and utter nonsense. Hell, even ANZ representatives have come out and said calling Israel an apartheid state belittles their own struggle.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 6,589 Senior Member
    swizz wrote: »
    and his name is................... Loghova.

    We're done here, folks. See ya next year because Swizz just closed this mofo down!!!
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,693 Senior Member
    Steven - "Beginning to resemble" is not the same as "is". We're talking past each other. Time out.

    Swizz - In my Pantheon of the gods Legover kicks Loghova's **** from here to Uranus and back.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,322 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    The path "he" has taken. There's no "He." There's the Israeli people. "He" is a PM. "He" can't take a path separate from the Israeli people.

    Change Obama for he and American for Israeli and I think you would not agree with that statement
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,322 Senior Member
    How is the West Bank different than Soweto? The fact that they let a small portion of the Christian and Muslim population live within their borders does not make it significantly different than Apartheid. Those settlements and that wall are seizing lands that have been owned by Palestinian families for generations. Yet for some reason if we recognize those simple facts we are considered anti-Semites.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan

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