So why is it....

2

Replies

  • swizzswizz Senior Member Posts: 2,559 Senior Member
    I reckon a lot of things will be different after Jan 20. This pleases me.
    All of your Trout are belong to me.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Yes Russia will get everything they ever wanted. The deficit will no longer continue to shrink, in fact it will grow. Unemployment will increase. The wage gap that had begun to shrink will start to grow again. We will lose the trust and respect of our allies and more young Muslims in this country will be radicalized by a President who questions their right to be Americans. Yes you voted for change and it is coming.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 2,946 Senior Member
    We will lose the trust and respect of our allies

    obama has already accomplished this.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    Point to Buford
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    Actually I don't think we have an official position on all of Jerusalem.

    We officially do not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem, but that the status of the entire city should be decided through negotiations.

    Remember Zivotofsky v. Kerry (Clinton)? That was the passport case in which Zivotofsky, an American citizen born in Jerusalem, asked to have his birthplace on his passport read Jerusalem, Israel. The State department refused arguing that the Administration does not recognize that anybody has sovereignty over Jerusalem. Zivotofsky lost in the Supreme Court. When an American citizen born in Jerusalem gets a U.S. passport, the birthplace just says "Jerusalem," nothing else.

    By the way, this brings up an interesting point...if nobody has sovereignty over Jerusalem, then how did Kerry go on to say that East Jerusalem was occupied territory? For a territory to be occupied, doesn't that imply that somebody else has sovereignty?
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    Hardly surprising that Europeans think less of Trump given his statement that they need to pay their fair share. Or that they think more highly of Obama than Bush given opposition to the Iraq War.

    More important question than confidence, would be "who do you think would be more likely to have your back?" I'd imagine that W would have won that one hands down, that's just my opinion.

    Meanwhile from your link:

    Still, the rebound in America’s reputation did not occur everywhere, especially in a number of strategically vital Middle Eastern nations (see this 2015 report for findings on America’s image in the Middle East and other regions not polled in 2016).

    As for drone strikes, who gives a **** what Pakistan and Yemen think.

    By the way, Yemen brings up another question. What guarantee do we have, particularly based on past behaviors, that a Palestine doesn't turn into another ****-show like Yemen or the Sudan? That would just be lovely if you were Israel.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,815 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    We officially do not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem, but that the status of the entire city should be decided through negotiations.

    Remember Zivotofsky v. Kerry (Clinton)? That was the passport case in which Zivotofsky, an American citizen born in Jerusalem, asked to have his birthplace on his passport read Jerusalem, Israel. The State department refused arguing that the Administration does not recognize that anybody has sovereignty over Jerusalem. Zivotofsky lost in the Supreme Court. When an American citizen born in Jerusalem gets a U.S. passport, the birthplace just says "Jerusalem," nothing else.

    By the way, this brings up an interesting point...if nobody has sovereignty over Jerusalem, then how did Kerry go on to say that East Jerusalem was occupied territory? For a territory to be occupied, doesn't that imply that somebody else has sovereignty?

    To stretch the point, in that case he could have said that West Jerusalem is "occupied territory" as well. I'm not sure what the legal niceties are, but I assume one can occupy disputed territory.

    I do not know when the popular name changed, but when I spent a few days in Jerusalem as a tourist in the 1980s "East Jerusalem" was referred to as the "Arab quarter". There were no (or very few) Jewish shops there and I don't recall seeing many obvious Jews - obvious in the sense of Hassidic/super Orthodox dress, hair curls etc. I guess it is only since then that many Jews have been moving into that part of the city.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    I'm not sure what the legal niceties are, but I assume one can occupy disputed territory.

    India doesn't occupy the Kashmir. East Jerusalem and the West Bank are occupied according to everyone concerned (except for the Israelis, but now including the U.S.). The Kashmir is disputed.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Let's just admit it, Bibi does not believe in a two state solution, is happy with the status quo and will not be happy until all of Palestine is occupied by Israeli settler and the Palestinians are pushed into the sea. He insists that they recognize Israels right to exist, but he does not acknowledge theirs and never has. He is an obstacle to peace.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Hardly surprising that Europeans think less of Trump given his statement that they need to pay their fair share.

    They do not just think less of Trump they thought less of W.

    But you go ahead and believe Breitbart and Alex Jones, because that is what you need to do.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    "Since the end of the 1967 war, the U.S. has regarded Israel as the occupying power in the occupied territories, which includes the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The U.S. considers Israel's occupation to be governed by the Hague Regulations of 1907 and the 1949 Geneva Conventions concerning the protection of civilian populations under military occupation."
    Thomas Pickering, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations – November 27, 1989
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    and the Palestinians are pushed into the sea.

    Ummm...you need to look at a map. You're getting your tropes wrong.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    They do not just think less of Trump they thought less of W.

    Yes. I think I mentioned that as well. Why yes, yes I did.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    "Since the end of the 1967 war, the U.S. has regarded Israel as the occupying power in the occupied territories, which includes the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem,

    My guess is that this is to show that we have an official view on West Jerusalem. But if Israel isn't "occupying" West Jerusalem, why shouldn't we put an embassy there? Why can't we recognize West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    My guess is that this is to show that we have an official view on West Jerusalem. But if Israel isn't "occupying" West Jerusalem, why shouldn't we put an embassy there? Why can't we recognize West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?

    Cuz you don't want to **** off the whole Middle East..

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • GoldenladleGoldenladle Super Moderator Posts: 3,873 Senior Member
    ricinus wrote: »
    Cuz you don't want to **** off the whole Middle East..

    Mike

    I believe there is no avoiding that now, its just a matter of time.

    Moved to Montana, gonna be a dental floss tycoon.

  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    It seems to me that this all comes down to a basic fact: Bibi thinks the Arabs will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution and will ALWAYS seek to destroy the state of Israel. Therefore, the state security depends on military strength and there is no reason not to treat the occupied territories as their own. Obama-Kerry still see the only stable situation as a two state plan, but they have no buyers, and "some are sayin" its history now.

    BTW, I read that Obama has given Israel 38 billion in military aid, more than any other POTUS. It not like he has abandoned them.
  • swizzswizz Senior Member Posts: 2,559 Senior Member
    He gave Iran more than that. Which side is he on?
    All of your Trout are belong to me.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    creekguy wrote: »
    It seems to me that this all comes down to a basic fact: Bibi thinks the Arabs will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution and will ALWAYS seek to destroy the state of Israel.

    Not surprising given that Palestinian Authority newspapers still refer to Israeli cities as "Occupied Haifa" or "Occupied Jaffa."

    I did my bit today by taking my associate to Maccabees, Des Moines' only Glatt-Kosher deli. Then I brought back a big block of Halvah for everybody in my section.
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    swizz wrote: »
    He gave Iran more than that. Which side is he on?

    That is of course a gross distortion, but have your fun.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,815 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    India doesn't occupy the Kashmir. East Jerusalem and the West Bank are occupied according to everyone concerned (except for the Israelis, but now including the U.S.). The Kashmir is disputed.

    Jammu and Kashmir is part of India legally, that is not in serious dispute except by Pakistan, which controls about 30% of the territory. Prior to partition it was one of several princely states under the Raj. The rulers of such states chose whether to join India or Pakistan. In this case the Maharaja chose to accede his domain to India although three quarters of his subjects were Muslims, largely because Muslim Pathans from what is now Pakistan's NW Frontier Province (and perhaps also from Afghanistan) fomented a revolt against him.

    The subsequent history is convoluted (everything in South Asia is convoluted), and Pakistan still claims all of it, but India has the firmer legal claim.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,815 Senior Member
    swizz wrote: »
    He gave Iran more than that. Which side is he on?

    More than $38 million in jets, missiles, anti-missile defense shields and other military aid? I don't think so. And no, before you say it, the money that went to Iran was not aid, and not military assistance.

    You need to leave Trumpistan once in a while to reconnect with the fact-based world.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • swizzswizz Senior Member Posts: 2,559 Senior Member
    creekguy wrote: »
    That is of course a gross distortion, but have your fun.
    wheeeeeeeeee!!!!! :D
    #tminus22days
    All of your Trout are belong to me.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    Israel's legal claim to the West Bank under the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo conference, and article 80 of the U.N. is far stronger than that of the made up Palestinian nation.

    UN General Assembly Resolution 181 is non-binding and not international law.

    Just pointing out the facts, not saying that Israel should annex the disputed territories (except Jerusalem).
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,815 Senior Member
    Israel will never give up Jerusalem, but free access to religious sites for all probably has to figure in any long term accord. How to do that will be the tricky part. In any case, ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

    The idea of a Palestinian nation may be "made up", but so is Israel and so are half or more of the world's nation states including the USA. The Middle East is notable for it's collection of countries that are either lines drawn on maps, mostly by colonial powers, tribes with flags or both.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    My guess is that this is to show that we have an official view on West Jerusalem. But if Israel isn't "occupying" West Jerusalem, why shouldn't we put an embassy there? Why can't we recognize West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?

    You know the answer.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,580 Senior Member
    creekguy wrote: »
    It seems to me that this all comes down to a basic fact: Bibi will NEVER agree to a 2 state solution and will ALWAYS seek to destroy the state of Palestine.

    Fixed. He does not believe that they have a right to exist that Palestine is a myth and that there can never be peace as long as the Palestinian people exist.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    You know the answer.

    No, I don't. We should start breaking ground on an embassy in West Jerusalem on January 21st.

    And if the Arabs don't like it, tough. Shale means never having to kiss their **** again.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 3,326 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    The idea of a Palestinian nation may be "made up", but so is Israel and so are half or more of the world's nation states including the USA. The Middle East is notable for it's collection of countries that are either lines drawn on maps, mostly by colonial powers, tribes with flags or both.

    No. First, of course, because there was a self-governing Israel up until 100 BC. There never was a Palestinian nation.
    Second, while the state of Israel was drawn up on a map, similarly to Jordan, Iraq and Syria, the lines on the map that exist today were won through two defensive wars. Israel was earned, not created.

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