Here is a question.

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Replies

  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 2,880 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    I just hope it doesnt taste like chicken.

    **** does not taste like chicken.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Shawn, I don't especially enjoy killing animals either, but the mere fact that the fish ostensibly survive when you let them go shouldn't cloud your judgment about what we are doing. We are catching them for mere sport. So how is that different?

    I live in Idaho, the epicenter of sport hunting. I know many ethical hunters. Wounding an animal is serious business to them. I have never known a hunter out of their teens who got their jollies wounding animals. I think your criticism is unfair to most hunters.

    Actually, I may buy an elk tag this year. But I'm just going to arrow the first cow elk that walks by. <paleo>
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,734 Senior Member
    If a person shoots a coyote or fox or raccoon at several hundred yards are they going to walk out there to see if the animal is dead? I'm sure some do, but if the animal falls to the ground, then how many are that ethical to just assume it isn't dead? What about shooting prairie dogs en masse? I think our definitions of "sport hunting" may be a bit different. I know guys who hunt trophies, but what I'm talking about is the guys who go out on a weekend just to shoot anything that moves. When people are doing that, there is simply no way to include the word 'ethical' in the description.
    And I'm a dry fly guy. I don't really catch trout, I just like to look like a fancy-man on the water. ;)
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Dry fly snobs by definition don't care about catching. If they did, they would nymph. :)
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,912 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    Just watched the video Chris posted. They should probably execute all sea lions (hell, all seal species too since that is the subject of the thread) because he stole that guy's tasty fish. Let's shotgun all of the brown pelicans while we're at it as that one on be dock is obviously complicit.
    Seriously though, why is the first and strongest reaction to kill or cull something that is apparently (though not necessarily) hurting our well-off white guy recreation? It's not like seals are killing people by loafing on highways or even eating all of your shrubs and ornamental trees in your yard that that you paid and cared for.
    Let's see some science before we start clubbing seals (again) for rightwad amusement.
    Essentially, not every wildlife over-population "issue" is created equally.

    Sent from my ObamaPhone using Tapatalk

    To be fair I posted it because I thought it was funny.

    But let's be honest about some things here. We do have commercial fisheries and they are for fish stocks that are in decline. For many factors such as over harvest we could possibly see what has happened to Atlantic Salmon happen to many pacific anadromous species. Not to mention that seals live on the east coast as well and are impacting our efforts there. The video I saw from the Canadian fishing show, showed seals actually traveling up fish ladders to take fish. If seal populations are having an unsustainable impact and these populations are at a point where they may need to be managed, should we not as a practical matter look to solutions that are beneficial to both species?

    Culturally I find seal hunting repugnant. As I do predator hunting. But both may serve a practical purpose. I agree though I would like to see more of the science.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Just an FYI but some predators that are hunted: bobcats, foxes, coyotes, etc., can be taken for the pelt also. So can raccoons. So some of the folks who take them are going to make sure they're dead. Those same animals can be trapped, not necessarily killed by the traps, mind you, but still trapped. It depends on the local regulations and how well the game agency can patrol the area.

    Also some folks who hunt things like black bear, mountain lions, and bobcats will eat them. They also want the pelt and skull if it's not too damaged, but the animal is consumed.

    Prairie dogs: if they're not shot, they get poisoned. Only problem is that you get other animals poisoned either through accidentally ingesting the poison, or by eating the prairie dogs.

    Finally, going out just to "shoot anything" ain't hunting. It's shooting at live, reactive targets.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    This is why I punch animals in the face. It's my version of hunting and releasing.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 4,792 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    What about shooting prairie dogs en masse?

    But just look at them...they are practically begging you to shoot them.*


    *Note: I have yet to shoot one, but we have a crap load of them by the house and every time I see one when I drive by I am pretty sure it is mocking me; challenging me to a duel.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 8,954 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Dry fly snobs by definition don't care about catching. If they did, they would nympho. :)

    Fixed yer typo. Trolling in bars for nymphos took up a year or so of my well spent youth, but I always took precautions not to catch. :)

    Not to re-open an old debate, but some of us fish for pleasure, and how we fish can add to or detract from the pleasure.

    To use an analogy that both GIs like me and Jarheads like you can grasp, and assuming we are fishing for trout in moving water:

    - dry fly fishing is like sipping the finest whiskey imaginable from fine crystal glasses in the company of good friends streamside at sunset while the guide prepares fresh Kobe beef fillets for dinner.

    - unweighted upstream nymphing is a close second, but you are drinking the same whiskey from plastic cups and the guide is grilling hamburgers.

    - Sherbish nymphing is like drinking that same fine whiskey from a canteen cup while sitting in a fox hole in the monsoon rain with only a shelter half to keep you and your MRE dry, with your nearest companion muttering away in another fox hole some 20 feet distant.

    Does this clarification help? Glad to be of service.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 8,954 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    But just look at them...they are practically begging you to shoot them.*


    *Note: I have yet to shoot one, but we have a crap load of them by the house and every time I see one when I drive by I am pretty sure it is mocking me; challenging me to a duel.

    Before choosing weapons and seconds you should watch Caddy Shack a few more times.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    If we want to have an impact on ocean fisheries, we should start taking out Portuguese, Spanish, Chinese, etc Trawlers, they are the major problem..

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 9,710 Senior Member
    Shawn, I didn't say anything about indiscriminate killing. I said it needs to be managed. Obviously, here in South Georgia, I don't have much to do with seals. But if the numbers are out of whack and they are decimating fisheries, then we need to reduce their numbers.

    Sure, we caused the problem. But what are the repercussions of not stepping in? Will we lose whatever the hell kind of fish these things dine on for the next 100 years?

    Humans can and have successfully managed animal populations. And it sounds like we need to do so with this particular charismatic mega fauna. And not because some seal stole a guy's mahi mahi.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    George K wrote: »

    - Sherbish nymphing is like drinking that same fine whiskey from a canteen cup while sitting in a fox hole in the monsoon rain with only a shelter half to keep you and your MRE dry, with your nearest companion muttering away in another fox hole some 20 feet distant.

    looking through rose-colored glasses after 20-odd years, this sounds pretty good right now.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 8,954 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    looking through rose-colored glasses after 20-odd years, this sounds pretty good right now.

    Nostalgia should only be consumed in small doses, and without the rose-colored glasses.

    Just sayin.:)

    BTW - My early season flies are mostly woolly buggers, weighted nymphs, a few streamers plus gaudy florescent things that trigger something in trout pea-size brains. Because of the waters I fish I have the luxury of fishing these mostly with floating lines. If I fished your rivers I would be adding weight to the leader.

    The thing I truly do not get is when I see people nymphing here in two feet of slow-to-moderate current with weight on the leader and the fly - and not catching any more fish than anyone else.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,734 Senior Member
    Thanks for the clarification Buffy. I agree with what you are saying if that is indeed the case. I just see so much anti-environmentalism here in UT. Not ambivalence, real, live efforts by people to eff things up. So, I apologize for my reactionary responses, but from my vantage point here in the redneck capital of the west, it is often well founded.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,734 Senior Member
    Sherbish Nymphing shall be forever added to the Lodge's lexicon. Strong work, George.
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    The crime is nymphing when you could be using dries. I see the Orvis crowd during hatches, tirelessly shortlining the same run for 50 minutes, cast after cast, with some size 20 beadhead on, because that's what the shop told them to do. That same deep hole next to the pull off gets absolutely hammered every weekend. Meanwhile they are rising to BWO's just around the bend, or somewhere upstream in an obscure side channel. I love the variety of scenery on a mountain stream, and rarely spend much time at a deep nymphing hole.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    creekguy wrote: »
    The crime is nymphing when you could be using dries. I see the Orvis crowd during hatches, tirelessly shortlining the same run for 50 minutes, cast after cast, with some size 20 beadhead on, because that's what the shop told them to do. That same deep hole next to the pull off gets absolutely hammered every weekend. Meanwhile they are rising to BWO's just around the bend, or somewhere upstream in an obscure side channel. I love the variety of scenery on a mountain stream, and rarely spend much time at a deep nymphing hole.

    Yeah, I get that. But I'm talking about advanced nymphing. I fish crowded public tailwaters. All of the classic nymphing runs are packed 24/7. I'm talking about nymphing everywhere. My favorite place to fish: the place everybody either 1) passes up, or 2) walks through to get to the prime water. Catch there, and you can catch anywhere.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,912 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    Thanks for the clarification Buffy. I agree with what you are saying if that is indeed the case. I just see so much anti-environmentalism here in UT. Not ambivalence, real, live efforts by people to eff things up. So, I apologize for my reactionary responses, but from my vantage point here in the redneck capital of the west, it is often well founded.

    What town is that exactly?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 9,710 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    Thanks for the clarification Buffy. I agree with what you are saying if that is indeed the case. I just see so much anti-environmentalism here in UT. Not ambivalence, real, live efforts by people to eff things up. So, I apologize for my reactionary responses, but from my vantage point here in the redneck capital of the west, it is often well founded.
    No apology needed. My first post about **** was kind of tongue in cheek.

    Sherb is correct in his statements about real hunters and sportsmen. We do have our redneck kill-anything-that-moves also. It is my hope that those are in the minority and are going to become more and more shunned by us more educated and ethical types.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,734 Senior Member
    It is a prevalent everywhere outside of Salt Lake City and its suburbs and Park City. Below are a few examples and only a couple are anecdotal:

    News stories of sheriffs organizing and leading ATV rides into roadless areas; there is a movement afoot to open a season to kill crows (I'm not an ornithologist but I know we do not have a crow over-population problem, not to mention: how many of these mouth-breathers know how to differentiate between a crow and a raven?); the militia movement that recently reared its ugly head in Nevada and Oregon is big in rural Utah; years ago many southern UT towns, with the explicit support of Senator Orin Hatch, wanted to exterminate the Utah Prairie Dog, once an endangered species (since upgraded to threatened); ever seen a guy that is proud of the video he shot while camping that shows the raven he shot being blown up with tannerite?; the very issue that Pio is using as his platform to run for congress (give federal land to the states so they can sell it to extractive industries) is an even bigger issue here; non-enforcement of watering restrictions; ask your father what is being done about the horrible air pollution problem we have in the winter. Spoiler alert: nothing.

    I could go on and on but once you see the attitudes around here you will begin to understand. One more thing: The litter. Holy hell the litter is so bad here.

    It is part of the culture/religious heritage here and it seems to be more fervent here than in other western states where land-use is always a hot-button issue. Unfortunately, everything these days is politicized including many environmental issues where common ground could more than likely be found otherwise.

    You are right to say that this place is very nice. There have been some environmental success stories, the Middle Provo River Reclamation being one of them.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,912 Senior Member
    Yeah so far my only contact with locals is the flyshop and work.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
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