One issue where Ted Cruz is right.

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Replies

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    Cruz wants to abolish the RFS (along with all government mandates and subsidies for energy, including for fossil fuels and renewables).

    If subsidies eventually lead to competitiveness of the alternative sources and leads to a cleaner environment, I think we have an interest in this.

    While I am not a fan of the RFS, it probably contributes to the economy of those corn states and I do not see that this is a hill a politician should be willing to die on.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • I do not see that this is a hill a politician should be willing to die on.

    Nor do any of them. :)
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    The one I don't get is the hold the coal industry has on those states. They employ less than 10% of the population, destroy the environment and are slowly killing the people that work for them. They are literally voting against their states interests.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,146 Senior Member
    The one I don't get is the hold the coal industry has on those states. They employ less than 10% of the population, destroy the environment and are slowly killing the people that work for them. They are literally voting against their states interests.

    I've wondered this as well. Those poor souls still laboring in coal mines would vote for their jobs, but I wonder if it has anything to do with the glorification of the coal miner, or any downtrodden working man, oppressed by the big corporations? Even for people NOT working in coal.

    Hell, in order to write a good bluegrass song, you need four elements. Lost love, mountains, trains, and mining coal.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    That may be the point. People in those regions have probably romanticized coal. It is like fighting for the Confederate Flag even when the values it represents are an anachronism.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Buffco wrote: »

    Hell, in order to write a good bluegrass song, you need four elements. Lost love, mountains, trains, and mining coal.
  • If subsidies eventually lead to competitiveness of the alternative sources and leads to a cleaner environment.

    And dead economists everywhere spin in their graves.... WTI is $30 a barrel. Isn't the market working?
  • 2002: Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) signs a letter declaring that the ethanol subsidies were “equivalent to a new tax” on gasoline and that there is “no sound public policy reason for mandating the use of ethanol.”
    Five years later, she visits Iowa as a candidate for president. While there, she announces that the U.S. needs to work on “limiting our dependence on foreign oil. And we have a perfect example right here in
    Iowa about how it can work with all of the ethanol that’s being produced here.

    2003: Senator John McCain (R-AZ) says: “Plain and simple, the ethanol program is highway robbery perpetrated on the American public by Congress.” Three years later, McCain visits Iowa as a candidate for
    president. While there, he calls ethanol “a vital alternative energy source not only because of our dependency on foreign oil but its greenhouse gas reduction effects.”
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    And dead economists everywhere spin in their graves.... WTI is $30 a barrel. Isn't the market working?

    I don't care what those dead economists think. The market is serving as an incentive to pollute. The market is not the be all and end all of the universe.

    It was economists that poisoned the children in Flint.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • Steven wrote: »
    2002: Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) signs a letter declaring that the ethanol subsidies were “equivalent to a new tax” on gasoline and that there is “no sound public policy reason for mandating the use of ethanol.”
    Five years later, she visits Iowa as a candidate for president. While there, she announces that the U.S. needs to work on “limiting our dependence on foreign oil. And we have a perfect example right here in
    Iowa about how it can work with all of the ethanol that’s being produced here.

    2003: Senator John McCain (R-AZ) says: “Plain and simple, the ethanol program is highway robbery perpetrated on the American public by Congress.” Three years later, McCain visits Iowa as a candidate for
    president. While there, he calls ethanol “a vital alternative energy source not only because of our dependency on foreign oil but its greenhouse gas reduction effects.”

    well, this can't be real. Surely no one would jettison their principles just to win the Iowa caucuses.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,146 Senior Member
    I don't care what those dead economists think. The market is serving as an incentive to pollute. The market is not the be all and end all of the universe.

    It was economists that poisoned the children in Flint.
    Didn't the govt lay those lead pipes?
  • Notice my fairness?

  • It was economists that poisoned the children in Flint.

    Wait, what? Who was it?

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430279/flint-water-scandal-democrats-blame-republicans?target=author&tid=1048
  • Steven wrote: »
    Notice my fairness?

    Its a bipartisan phenomenon.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    Didn't the govt lay those lead pipes?

    It was an Emergency manager (economist) who insisted they continue to use the water from the Flint River that was corroding those pipes even when the Government of Flint voted to stop.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • It was Michigan's Department of Environmental Quality that didn't treat the Flint River with a corrosive agent for years - which was mandated by federal law.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »

    You need to find a new source. The city council voted to take water from Lake Huron, not the Flint River, when concerns about lead came to their attention they voted to change where they were getting their water, the Emergency manager vetoed that vote. There is no record of the council approving plans to get water from the Flint river, that decision was solely that of the Republican appointed city manager.

    Try using better more honest unbiased sources for your information.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • You need to find a new source. The city council voted to take water from Lake Huron, not the Flint River, when concerns about lead came to their attention they voted to change where they were getting their water, the Emergency manager vetoed that vote. There is no record of the council approving plans to get water from the Flint river, that decision was solely that of the Republican appointed city manager.

    Try using better more honest unbiased sources for your information.

    "your source sucks" is not an argument.
  • Liberals talk about market inefficiencies like pollution but refuse to see the inefficiencies of their own actions. In the case of ethanol, it's the excess production of corn for no good reason. Think that land could be productively used for something else that could make people's lives better?

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and liberals keep driving right down it again and again - never looking to the left or right.
  • You need to find a new source. The city council voted to take water from Lake Huron, not the Flint River, when concerns about lead came to their attention they voted to change where they were getting their water, the Emergency manager vetoed that vote. There is no record of the council approving plans to get water from the Flint river, that decision was solely that of the Republican appointed city manager.

    Show your work. You know the rules.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    http://www.vox.com/2016/1/20/10789810/flint-michigan-water-crisis
    There should be no doubt about who was ultimately responsible for Flint's water policies. In 2013, the Flint City Council voted 7-1 to build a new water pipeline to Lake Huron, freeing us from exorbitant rates from Detroit. Emergency manager Ed Kurtz went along, happily claiming a mandate for a policy he supported.

    Immediately after this decision was made, Detroit canceled its contract with Flint. The disastrous next step was made not by the Flint mayor or the city council but by the subsequent emergency manager, Darnell Earley.

    The new pipeline would take years to build, and if Flint did not wish to renegotiate a new, short-term contract with Detroit, it would need to draw water from somewhere else in the meantime. That alternative source became the Flint River. And it was Earley who validated the filtration and use of Flint River water.

    Later, in 2015, amid rumors of lead compounded with TTHM violations, the city council voted, again 7-1, to "do all things necessary" to return to Detroit water. Their decision was vetoed by emergency manager Jerry Ambrose. He said that the vote was "incomprehensible."
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • https://reason.com/blog/2016/01/26/liberals-still-say-austerity-poisoned-th

    edit: and just to tie in to Steven's point:

    But Flint’s principal problem—one that pre-dates the water crisis by decades—is that its economically-underprivileged taxpayers can’t afford to pay the pensions of retired city workers. Excess government spending landed Flint in its current, sorry state, not austerity. Likewise, the disastrous decision to go with a more expensive water option was not austerity, but government-sponsored stimulus gone (predictably) wrong.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    So again if it is cheaper to poison babies that is what the right would choose every time. They chose to leave the the water system of Detroit to save money. That is why the city council voted for it. What is it with you guys and basic facts? They did not choose the more expensive water option, they chose what they believed was the cheaper poisonous one. Not to mention the $100 a day water filters that would have lowered the salinity that they cheaped out on.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • So again if it is cheaper to poison babies that is what the right would choose every time.

    As I've said before, and as I will say again, I'm not insulted by this because its obvious to me that right-wingers know a lot more about the left than the left knows about the right.
  • In response to #23...


    The task force says the Department of Environmental Quality must be held accountable. Mr. Wyant, the director of the state environment agency, resigns.

    “We believe the primary responsibility for what happened in Flint rests with the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality.”


    Flint Water Advisory Task Force - 12/29/15
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    As I've said before, and as I will say again, I'm not insulted by this because its obvious to me that right-wingers know a lot more about the left than the left knows about the right.

    And Trump proves you are wrong.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • And Trump proves you are wrong.

    This non-sequitur literally means nothing. I mean, nothing. It has no meaning. Its pure (meaningless) insult.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    As I've said before, and as I will say again, I'm not insulted by this because its obvious to me that right-wingers know a lot more about the left than the left knows about the right.

    And this was?

    Deflect all you want, Republicans took the decisions away from the People of Flint and are now getting the Right Wing spin machine going nuts trying to find a way to avoid taking responsibility for the mess they created. Obviously you are their target audience.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • So again if it is cheaper to poison babies that is what the right would choose every time. They chose to leave the the water system of Detroit to save money. That is why the city council voted for it. What is it with you guys and basic facts?

    What is it with the left lying to suit their narrative? They didn't choose to leave. Detroit (another third-world democratic hellhole by the way) upped the price of the water.

    The problem in Flint, as in every other locale run by democrats, is excessive government largesse than can no longer be sustained. Flint has a billion dollars in unfunded public pension liabilities. A billion.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,009 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Liberals talk about market inefficiencies like pollution but refuse to see the inefficiencies of their own actions. In the case of ethanol, it's the excess production of corn for no good reason. Think that land could be productively used for something else that could make people's lives better?

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and liberals keep driving right down it again and again - never looking to the left or right.

    Republicans have controlled the White House for more years than Dems, why have none of those administrations done anything about this?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
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