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Anders Breivik

seppalaseppala Senior MemberPosts: 1,916 Senior Member
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/05/25/the-inexplicable

One of the best pieces of journalism I've read in quite some time.
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Replies

  • flytrapflytrap Banned Posts: 1,659 Senior Member
    You must not read much. One of the most long-winded treatises to ever just say the guy was nuts.
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    You must be an absolute pleasure at parties, workplace gatherings, living rooms, grocery stores, etc.

    It's beautifully easy and simple to say "the guy was nuts" and move on, assured of your knowledge of the worlds workings.

    But it's ****, and it's dangerous.
  • flytrapflytrap Banned Posts: 1,659 Senior Member
    I'm a bottom line type. Normally I read 600-1000 pages a week, but not when it just keeps saying the same thing over and over or in roundabout ways.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    He was given a twenty-one-year term that can be extended indefinitely—Norway’s maximum sentence.

    As an American this seems inadequate.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Now it is almost impossible to believe. After the shock of the first few days, and the sorrow of the following weeks, the events of July 22nd have shuttered themselves. The most striking aspect of the ten-week trial—which took place a year later, and at which we were given our first glimpse of Breivik, and his entire life and his every environment were documented and analyzed—was how normalized both the perpetrator and the crime had become. It was as if the fact that he was a human being like us, who defended his point of view, subsumed the incomprehensible: suddenly, Breivik was the measure, not his crime. One of Breivik’s victims called him “a jerk” in the newspaper; numerous commentators described him as small, petty, pathetic. Some devoted themselves to finding the holes in his arguments; others described his missteps and his misconceptions. This reduction of the perpetrator, the act of making him seem less dangerous, is understandable, because a person in and of himself is small, but that does not mean we understand any more about how this act of terror was possible. On the contrary, in the wake of the trial, it is as if the two entities, the unimaginable crime and the man who committed it, were irreconcilable.

    You might call this the Eichmann effect. I see this every day. . .and its jarring.

    Edit: Heh. Looks like I should have read further before posting.
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    I have no idea how you're able to separate your personal life from your work life. I'd carry that **** around like a millstone.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    I have no idea how you're able to separate your personal life from your work life. I'd carry that **** around like a millstone.

    Its just business, bro.
  • flytrapflytrap Banned Posts: 1,659 Senior Member
    Sherb was a Marine, so he's well versed in ignoring reality.
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Its just business, bro.

    I wish I could think that way. I **** a professor off over something petty and I funk out for days.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,585 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    I wish I could think that way. I **** a professor off over something petty and I funk out for days.
    I carry emotional baggage from conflicts as well. If a customer is a jerk on the phone, it takes me a couple days to over it.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    I carry emotional baggage from conflicts as well. If a customer is a jerk on the phone, it takes me a couple days to over it.

    A completely unrelated request... can I have your phone number?
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,585 Senior Member
    Sure. 867-5309.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 12,280 Senior Member
    Tommy?

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,684 Senior Member
    That same issue of the New Yorker has a good article on the legal background to the gay marriage case now before Clarence the Clown and other august members of that Supreme establishment.

    Just sayin'.
    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    The flyover states have yet to receive this week's issue.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,585 Senior Member
    What's happening with that? Give us the cliffs notes version. Can sepp and I marry now?
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    What's happening with that? Give us the cliffs notes version. Can sepp and I marry now?

    It'll never work. Two enablers should not be together.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    It's beautifully easy and simple to say "the guy was nuts" and move on, assured of your knowledge of the worlds workings.

    Agreed, the article was much more than "hey, look at this nuts guy!" Thanks for sharing.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,210 Senior Member
    I now empathize with Norwegians..

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,585 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    It'll never work. Two enablers should not be together.

    You can't quit me.

    We could build a little farming community and invite sherb and Pio.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    I'm unclear on the point of this article:
    1) This guy was nuts?
    2) How did this nut happen in Norway?
    3) How did this guy become nuts?
    4) What enabled the guy to become nuts?
    5) How to identify nuts?

    Something I find amazing: the description of the kids lined up against the wall waiting to be shot. Why? What in human nature allows this happen? From the death camps to ISIS. Is it that we don't believe? Do we not comprehend; our brains shut off? Do we hold out hope that if we don't do anything, there will be a reprieve or our captors may show mercy?

    I see these unfortuante souls trapped in Iraq or Syria kneeling - ready to be beheaded - while their future killer rants for the internet. Are these captives drugged? Do they think not doing anything is the ultimate sign of bravery? Is it some kind of message they're sending to loved ones - they can kill me but they can't get to me? Or did they just give up and not care anymore?

    I'd like to think I'd take actions - scream, yell, swear, place a head butt right in the effers nuts, something. You want to kill me, kill me when I'm standing.

    But maybe I wouldn't.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 6,314 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    I see these unfortuante souls trapped in Iraq or Syria kneeling - ready to be beheaded - while their future killer rants for the internet. Are these captives drugged? Do they think not doing anything is the ultimate sign of bravery? Is it some kind of message they're sending to loved ones - they can kill me but they can't get to me? Or did they just give up and not care anymore?

    I'd like to think I'd take actions - scream, yell, swear, place a head butt right in the effers nuts, something. You want to kill me, kill me when I'm standing.

    But maybe I wouldn't.
    My understanding is that by the time they get to filming the videos they've had "rehearsals" about 12 or more times, usually prefaced with "this is just a rehearsal, we're not going to kill you, but if you fight we will." So when the actual kill comes, they don't know until the bullet hits them or the knife starts to cut. Also, there are some drugs involved to keep them compliant, along with abuse, food deprivation, and other such things to wear down the will.
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    I'm unclear on the point of this article:
    Something I find amazing: the description of the kids lined up against the wall waiting to be shot. Why? What in human nature allows this happen? From the death camps to ISIS. Is it that we don't believe? Do we not comprehend; our brains shut off? Do we hold out hope that if we don't do anything, there will be a reprieve or our captors may show mercy?

    For the kids, I would think it's a paralyzing fear. When faced with unimaginable terror, I could see how my brain might send 1,000 different signals, all of which conflict with the other. Or conversely, it would cease to send any signals because it couldn't process what was happening.

    -

    I don't know that there was an overall point of the article aside from Knausgaard's attempt to deal with what happened. What I took away from it, what I think was most important, is that Breivik was not batshit crazy. It's convenient to think of Lanza as an autistic automaton and Breivik as a raving loony because then we don't have to force ourselves to understand that a normal person could commit such heinous acts.

    My wife and I disagree on this issue. She thinks anyone who would commit mass murder or other similar-scale reprehensible acts is crazy by virtue of their misdeeds. I disagree, which is why I appreciated this article so. Unfortunately, there's no concrete answer, so I can't throw it in her face.
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,585 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    For the kids, I would think it's a paralyzing fear. When faced with unimaginable terror, I could see how my brain might send 1,000 different signals, all of which conflict with the other. Or conversely, it would cease to send any signals because it couldn't process what was happening.

    I read an excellent article on this once, and wish I could find it again. In short, everyone lined up against the wall is waiting for someone else to do something. In that moment of sheer terror, most people don't think that maybe THEY should do something. It seems to be proportionately worse the more people that are involved.

    It also talked about a crowd of people witnessing a bad accident, or someone being mugged. The more people witnessing the event, the less likely someone is going to attempt to help. However, if you are the only one around, you're much more likely to intervene. After all, there's only yourself around to be able to help. With a crowd of people, you're expecting "someone" to do it.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    I thought the article also had extra value because the author is Norwegian and has a different perspective on trying to assess what the f jappened and why the f it happened. Here, these things happen every few years, so we're kind of resigned to just saying "**** ****, guy was nuts!"
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    I don't know that there was an overall point of the article aside from Knausgaard's attempt to deal with what happened. What I took away from it, what I think was most important, is that Breivik was not batshit crazy. It's convenient to think of Lanza as an autistic automaton and Breivik as a raving loony because then we don't have to force ourselves to understand that a normal person could commit such heinous acts.

    My wife and I disagree on this issue. She thinks anyone who would commit mass murder or other similar-scale reprehensible acts is crazy by virtue of their misdeeds. I disagree, which is why I appreciated this article so. Unfortunately, there's no concrete answer, so I can't throw it in her face.

    Sounds like the guy had a serious personality disorder. So, no he wasn't "batshit crazy" (mental disorder) but he wasn't normal either.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    I read an excellent article on this once, and wish I could find it again. In short, everyone lined up against the wall is waiting for someone else to do something. In that moment of sheer terror, most people don't think that maybe THEY should do something. It seems to be proportionately worse the more people that are involved.

    It also talked about a crowd of people witnessing a bad accident, or someone being mugged. The more people witnessing the event, the less likely someone is going to attempt to help. However, if you are the only one around, you're much more likely to intervene. After all, there's only yourself around to be able to help. With a crowd of people, you're expecting "someone" to do it.

    very interesting insight.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    For the kids, I would think it's a paralyzing fear. When faced with unimaginable terror, I could see how my brain might send 1,000 different signals, all of which conflict with the other. Or conversely, it would cease to send any signals because it couldn't process what was happening.

    -

    I don't know that there was an overall point of the article aside from Knausgaard's attempt to deal with what happened. What I took away from it, what I think was most important, is that Breivik was not batshit crazy. It's convenient to think of Lanza as an autistic automaton and Breivik as a raving loony because then we don't have to force ourselves to understand that a normal person could commit such heinous acts.

    My wife and I disagree on this issue. She thinks anyone who would commit mass murder or other similar-scale reprehensible acts is crazy by virtue of their misdeeds. I disagree, which is why I appreciated this article so. Unfortunately, there's no concrete answer, so I can't throw it in her face.

    Great post.

    I think our culture has lost the language to describe such deeds and the people who perform them. We no longer have words for it. We generally ascribe to them some form of pyschopathology, and indeed, the first thing the judge did (as any judge anywhere in the Western world would do) was to order a psychiatric eval. But of course that didn't tell us much. Frankly, the way he whined like a little girl about the cut on his hand tells us more about him than a busload of mental health professionals would. I think in bygone centuries we would have called it "evil," or the work of the devil. . .but now?

    I only know this much: calling him crazy does not fit.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Hextall wrote: »
    I thought the article also had extra value because the author is Norwegian and has a different perspective on trying to assess what the f jappened and why the f it happened. Here, these things happen every few years, so we're kind of resigned to just saying "**** ****, guy was nuts!"

    I found it interesting that the author wrote that an incident like this is nothing that they should make an effort to protect against because it was so one-off.

    I'm thinking, "hey, this guy is nuts!"
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    The older I get, the more I struggle with the ability to define anything. To use a Hextallian example:

    Let's say you beat the **** out of your three kids - you're not crazy, you have anger management problems. What if you beat the **** out of three kids at a park? You're crazy. What's the line at which you go from anger management troubles to batshit crazy? This is a silly example, I know, but it's not easy. You shoot a guy you got into a fight with, you were acting out of anger. You shoot people because you think you'll get your political point across, you're crazy.

    The guy who ran Silk Road had, or at least thought he had, a few people killed. How many people OD'ed on drugs that moved through his website? How many crimes were committed by those using his website? Not once is he labelled crazy, or offered a diagnosis of a personality disorder.

    That's a whole lot of gibberish above. Pardon me - I've got weekend brain.

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