For the record

123578

Replies

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    It was a replica of a real gun. Honestly, I wouldn't care if he was 12. I'd probably be more afraid that something might happen.

    There are a bunch of other cases much better to make your case.

    That does not justify simply pulling up and immediately shooting him. You have an obligation as a police officer to assess risk and make decisions based on that assessment. They made no attempt to verify it was a real weapon, or what was happening. They pulled up and shot him. But I guess that is okay with you because a cop was protected from being shot with a rubber bb.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,211 Senior Member
    That is because as a white man you would have a reasonable expectation of receiving justice.

    No, it's because I have a rational thought process.

    Let's have due process become a thing of the past and let's have mob mentality justice! That's the way to do it!!! :rolleyes:
  • Here's when I knew the narrative was lost: when the conversation shifted from how this guy ended up dead in police custody to rationalizing or explaining the riots. The riots are the story now.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Here's when I knew the narrative was lost: when the conversation shifted from how this guy ended up dead in police custody to rationalizing or explaining the riots. The riots are the story now.

    You cannot discuss the effect while ignoring the causation.

    BTW I started this conversation with an opinion on people killing police officers, it evolved into a discussion of the riots.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    Joe K. wrote: »
    No, it's because I have a rational thought process.

    Let's have due process become a thing of the past and let's have mob mentality justice! That's the way to do it!!! :rolleyes:

    The problem here with your reasoning is that in black and impoverished communities there is no expectation of justice. That there is a history in those neighborhoods of having their rights violated and ignored by the justice system. You have much more faith in that system than they do. It is the break down of faith in our institutions that is the root of all this anger.

    I guess I must explain here for Sherb, that I do not think what they are doing is right, I do not think what they are doing is smart, I do not think it is justified and I do not support them in their actions. But their lack of faith is supported by 200+ years of evidence. But still in our society, you fight for justice in the courts not the streets.

    I actually posted the video of the mother beating her son, because I applauded her effort.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    The riots are the story now.

    "When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. "

    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/nonviolence-as-compliance/391640/
  • I read that yesterday. The extraordinary defensiveness contain therein is proof positive that the riots are the story now.

  • BTW I started this conversation with an opinion on people killing police officers, it evolved into a discussion of the riots.

    Which it was inevitably going to do, once the narrative had been lost. I wonder how the images of Bull Connor siccing the dogs on MLK and company would have looked if blacks had started rioting and looting. Would it look differently to us? Would Walter Cronkite have intoned solemnly on the need for the Birmingham PD to keep the peace?

    Look, I get it. Nothing could more human, indeed more American, than a refusal to beg for acceptance. I absolutely understand that. Anger is an appropriate response at times. But if that isn't channeled into appropriate venues. . . you get this.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Which it was inevitably going to do, once the narrative had been lost. I wonder how the images of Bull Connor siccing the dogs on MLK and company would have looked if blacks had started rioting and looting. Would it look differently to us? Would Walter Cronkite have intoned solemnly on the need for the Birmingham PD to keep the peace?

    Look, I get it. Nothing could more human, indeed more American, than a refusal to beg for acceptance. I absolutely understand that. Anger is an appropriate response at times. But if that isn't channeled into appropriate venues. . . you get this.

    But if the proper channeling is denied them or ineffective, can that not also be seen as a cause for concern. What I am saying is these riots are a symptom of a much larger issue and until we address these issues, this is going to keep happening.

    Interesting you mention Bull Connor because I was thinking that in the 50+ years of off and on civil unrest we have experienced we still have not come up with an adequate strategy to address it.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • I agree. But we are still talking about the riots, and I'm still left wondering what happened to Freddie Gray. What happened to him?

    It appears to me that until order is restored, we aren't to know the answer to that question. So once again, the focus is on the rioters, and not on the Baltimore PD.

    As to the other issue, nonviolence was certainly adequate to address the issue of segregation (with an assist from LBJ). Hell, nonviolence ended the British Raj. So its very effective--when its used.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    So its [nonviolence] very effective--when its used.

    So is violence.
  • That does not justify simply pulling up and immediately shooting him. You have an obligation as a police officer to assess risk and make decisions based on that assessment. They made no attempt to verify it was a real weapon, or what was happening. They pulled up and shot him. But I guess that is okay with you because a cop was protected from being shot with a rubber bb.

    The video shows the kid reaching for the gun so the don't have time to verify if it was a real weapon. In the second that they had, they may very well have attempted to "assess risk and make a decision based on that assessment," but came to the wrong conclusion.

    I'm not a cop so I don't know if they should have pulled up as close as they did.

    Terrible tragedy, but if the cops aren't indicted in this case, I don't think it's an obvious miscarriage of justice.
  • Hextall wrote: »
    So is violence.

    another one of TNC's arguments. Yes, true. But today, tomorrow, or next week, the police will regain their monopoly on said violence, and then what?
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    But today, tomorrow, or next week, the police will regain their monopoly on said violence, and then what?

    Maybe the cops will regain the monopoly, but maybe they'll also think twice about resorting to it or thinking they can get away with it.

    Apparently nonviolently suing the police and paying millions wasn't working.
  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 1,572 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    The video shows the kid reaching for the gun so the don't have time to verify if it was a real weapon. In the second that they had, they may very well have attempted to "assess risk and make a decision based on that assessment," but came to the wrong conclusion.

    Watch this video (without sound is best) - very closely at 1:50 and 3:13 and you'll know why this sort of thing happens.
    Warning, it's graphic.

    https://www.facebook.com/kosovopolicePhoto/videos/511275342353047/
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    The video shows the kid reaching for the gun so the don't have time to verify if it was a real weapon.

    They put themselves in this situation. He had been out there for a long time and had not even threatened anyone. There was more than enough time to put themselves in a safe situation to determine if he was an actual threat.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    10942606_10153891982499569_3465570884267464894_n.jpg?oh=53e3303324e5c43fb1ca98cb8bbb4465&oe=55E237FC
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • 10942606_10153891982499569_3465570884267464894_n.jpg?oh=53e3303324e5c43fb1ca98cb8bbb4465&oe=55E237FC

    I fully endorse this.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    I agree. But we are still talking about the riots, and I'm still left wondering what happened to Freddie Gray. What happened to him?

    Well isn't that also on the police? The only ones issuing statements are the union reps and none of those have been helpful. Just once I would like a police union to admit that one of its members is a piece of garbage. But I guess that is as likely as seeing an end of rioting after perceived injustice.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • They put themselves in this situation. He had been out there for a long time and had not even threatened anyone. There was more than enough time to put themselves in a safe situation to determine if he was an actual threat.

    I don't disagree, but once in that situation, what were they to do exactly?
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    Sherb, ricinius and seppala: You are invited to tomorrow's O's game! Just show up.
  • Hextall wrote: »
    Maybe the cops will regain the monopoly, but maybe they'll also think twice about resorting to it or thinking they can get away with it.

    Apparently nonviolently suing the police and paying millions wasn't working.

    Not to belabor this conversation, but if you sat where I sit, you would see that the threat of a federal lawsuit acts as a strong deterrent to police misconduct.
  • Hextall wrote: »
    Sherb, ricinius and seppala: You are invited to tomorrow's O's game! Just show up.

    I thought I read that it wasn't open to the public. Are you trying to trick me, sir?
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Not to belabor this conversation, but if you sat where I sit, you would see that the threat of a federal lawsuit acts as a strong deterrent to police misconduct.

    You don't exactly sit in Baltimore though.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    I thought I read that it wasn't open to the public. Are you trying to trick me, sir?

    No, I would never.

    Tickets are under the name Frederick Gray the Spineless.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    I don't disagree, but once in that situation, what were they to do exactly?

    back away.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,368 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Not to belabor this conversation, but if you sat where I sit, you would see that the threat of a federal lawsuit acts as a strong deterrent to police misconduct.

    You get a lot of police misconduct where you sit?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • FishTXFishTX Super Moderator Posts: 8,072 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    Can I get this as my avatar...please add the caption "No Justice No Azzwipe"

    CDosxCCWAAElfNN.jpg

    kse6k_zpseubaelnd.jpg
    "We have to find someone who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner."

    Crooow:This music would work better with women in bikinis shaking all over the place. I guess that's true of any music really.
  • HextallHextall Senior Member Posts: 9,520 Senior Member
    Tomorrow's game time starter is a local crafty lefthander with a hard slider.

    proxy.jpg?t=HBheaHR0cDovL2kyLmNkbi50dXJuZXIuY29tL2Nubm5leHQvZGFtL2Fzc2V0cy8xNTA0MjgxMzQ3MTEtMDEtYmFsdGltb3JlLXJpb3RzLTA0MjctbGFyZ2UtMTY5LmpwZxSYBxSGBAAWABIA&s=ahESbw0zcK_6zn-Rs0OvC1NyJzGhLqR36XESikvcfbA
  • flytrapflytrap Banned Posts: 1,659 Senior Member
    No you said that you could understand why they could have that opinion, that stupid narrow minded bigoted opinion.

    I understand it, I defend their right to it, I don't have to agree with it. That's what I spent a career doing, sometimes I wish I hadn't just to see how effed up this country could really be.
    There are worse things in life than being a born cynic.

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