Replies

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,640 Senior Member
    The New York Times piece is rather muddled and I am not even sure what his point is, if he even has one.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I thought it was great. Its meaning was clear to me: arguing that ISIS is on the wrong side of history or is some sort of pre-modern throwback misses the point: the rise of groups like ISIS is closely tied to the success of liberal democracy. We can't take the general success of our system for granted.
  • seppalaseppala Senior Member Posts: 1,916 Senior Member
    Both articles were good. Thanks, Sherb.

    It's almost too difficult for me to grasp the idea that jihadis truly believe what they're doing is right, that an ISIS member is just as confident in his worldview as I am in mine, that he thinks I'm just as wrong as I think he is.

    It's much easier to say they must be crazy.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,640 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    I thought it was great. Its meaning was clear to me: arguing that ISIS is on the wrong side of history or is some sort of pre-modern throwback misses the point: the rise of groups like ISIS is closely tied to the success of liberal democracy. We can't take the general success of our system for granted.

    I kind of got that. But really just because an anachronism exists along side the development of modern philosophy, does not mean that it is not on the wrong side of history. I guess that was my problem once he lost me on that, I found reading the rest difficult.

    Also he belabors the arch of history bit, when all it really is, is a homage to MLK's line about the arc bending towards justice.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,640 Senior Member
    seppala wrote: »
    Both articles were good. Thanks, Sherb.

    It's almost too difficult for me to grasp the idea that jihadis truly believe what they're doing is right, that an ISIS member is just as confident in his worldview as I am in mine, that he thinks I'm just as wrong as I think he is.

    It's much easier to say they must be crazy.

    Fundamentalists of all stripes tend to see the world in absolutes. Absolutes tend to make the world easier to understand. Also fighting for God is a much easier road to absolution than actual living a moral life.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,340 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »

    Both worth reading and mostly correct, IMO, save for ignoring the deep-seated feelings of resentment and inferiority many Muslims feel. When Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islamic Arab civilization was at its peak, preserving and building upon the ancient Greeks and Romans in science and some of the arts. It's all been downhill since then, especially since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and western civilization is a convenient target to blame.

    It would be interesting to know the proportion of the Europeans and Americans who are converts from Christianity or Judaism. They logically would be "more Catholic than the Pope", eager to show their worth via extra zeal and extremism.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    "Finally, the (Tea Party, Militia movement, etc. and the) Islamic State not only has the romance of revolution, and the promise of action and power, but also religious and apocalyptic appeal."
    Its just a thing that appeals to a certain type of person.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,640 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    Both worth reading and mostly correct, IMO, save for ignoring the deep-seated feelings of resentment and inferiority many Muslims feel. When Europe was in the Dark Ages, Islamic Arab civilization was at its peak, preserving and building upon the ancient Greeks and Romans in science and some of the arts. It's all been downhill since then, especially since the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and western civilization is a convenient target to blame.

    It would be interesting to know the proportion of the Europeans and Americans who are converts from Christianity or Judaism. They logically would be "more Catholic than the Pope", eager to show their worth via extra zeal and extremism.

    There is something about Catholics that make us especially vulnerable to conversion to other religions. There is nothing worse than having a fundamentalist at your door that grew up Catholic.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,640 Senior Member
    Okay the article from "The Week" was a much easier read. I think I tend to agree.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 4,978 Senior Member
    There is something about Catholics that make us especially vulnerable to conversion to other religions. There is nothing worse than having a fundamentalist at your door that grew up Catholic.

    I don't know some of the born again Mormons are pretty darn special
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,340 Senior Member
    There is something about Catholics that make us especially vulnerable to conversion to other religions. There is nothing worse than having a fundamentalist at your door that grew up Catholic.

    I was just using that old expression about being "more Catholic than the Pope" to signify that converts often outdo the born and bred at orthodoxy and zeal, be it religion, politics or whatever. Good friends of mine exemplify this; he is a fairly secular Jew, but for whatever reasons she converted from Lutheranism when they married. She is the one who always pushes the family's Jewishness and instilled it in the kids. Ironically, she once was Dean of Students at a Catholic university.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 22,640 Senior Member
    Yeah I kind of got that. But it triggered a thought.

    When I was younger I explored evangelical Christianity, it is really easy to find a bible study in the military, I found that the people that had the most difficult time with nuance were the newest converts. I guess there is something in human nature that creates zeal in people that have come across a new idea.

    Perhaps some of my experiences with former Catholics is because I guess they felt I was in special need of "saving." lol
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan

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