It's time for the first Israel/Gaza post

24

Replies

  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I also go by the adage it takes two to make a fight. In this instance Israel has every right to defend themselves and if those rockets are going to be fired from schools and mosques and civilians do not evacuate, then God be with them. Israel, sends out robocalls and leaflets to warn civilians. Even if they didn't it doesn't take a genius to think, hey are those rockets being launched from that school? Yeah time to walk the other way" It also doesn't take a genius to realize that Hamas is using your kid's dead body to raise more money from gullible Arabs so they can sit in air conditioned hotel suites in Qatar. Palestinians will not be free of terror if they will not reject the terrorists.

    At the same time this uprising did not come out of the ethos either. Eight years of blockade. Eight years of not even being able to go fishing to feed your families. I understand Israel believes they have their reasons. But the situation is only sustainable if the end goal is the elimination of the Palestinian people. If they want the Palestinians to recognize their right to exist, perhaps they should do the same for the Palestinians.

    This is a good post and will serve as my opinion as well. cosigned.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    EdB wrote: »
    That's not a fact, it's what we are told.

    BTW, there is no evidence rockets are being launched from schools, they may be launched near schools and hospitals, but not from them. That is no reason for Israel to bomb schools and hospitals directly. Hamas is at fault for locating them there, knowing that innocents will be killed, and that is a war crime also.

    Believe whatever you want to believe, but it is the stated policy of Hamas to eliminate the Jews entirely. Specifically, Hamas' charter states "'our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."

    Given the history of the 20th century, when a group threatens genocide, they ought to be taken seriously. Israel believes what Hamas tells them. I find it hard to believe that you don't.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Believe whatever you want to believe, but it is the stated policy of Hamas to eliminate the Jews entirely. Specifically, Hamas' charter states "'our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories, and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."

    Given the history of the 20th century, when a group threatens genocide, they ought to be taken seriously. Israel believes what Hamas tells them. I find it hard to believe that you don't.

    What is the solution? Israel has abandoned the 2 state solution so is the solution the destruction of the elected Hamas government of Gaza as some in Israel are proposing, with the result of many more innocent civilians dead?

    Just coming across the news - the U.S. will resupply Israel's ammunition from its existing stores in Israel.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Solution? There's no solution.

    Here's your "solution" in a nutshell.

    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2014/07/america-should-get-out-peacekeeping-business-israel

    Israel has the greater burden, in my opinion, because they are the stronger belligerent yet also feel compelled to act with restraint. Hamas does not act with restraint. Frankly, Hamas' charter should serve as adequate provocation for their removal from power and destruction. That's not going to happen, thanks to the miracle of the Iphone camera. All Hamas has to do to win is survive. In this world, obviously Israel is winning, but In the twitterverse, Israel is losing the PR war, badly. The stronger power has to back down. But its not a solution.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    What is the solution? Israel has abandoned the 2 state solution so is the solution the destruction of the elected Hamas government of Gaza as some in Israel are proposing, with the result of many more innocent civilians dead?

    Hamas is not the elected government of Gaza, they came into power through the violent overthrow of the elected government of Gaza.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_%282007%29
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    At the same time this uprising did not come out of the ethos either. Eight years of blockade. Eight years of not even being able to go fishing to feed your families. I understand Israel believes they have their reasons. But the situation is only sustainable if the end goal is the elimination of the Palestinian people. If they want the Palestinians to recognize their right to exist, perhaps they should do the same for the Palestinians.

    Something to keep clear here.

    This isn't an uprising like the intifada. This is all about Hamas as a political entity.
    Three Israeli teens were kidnapped in the West Bank. Nobody claimed responsibility although Hamas applauded it (the kids were eventually found dead). In search of the kids, the IDF went in to the West Bank (not Gaza) and arrested all the usual subjects trying to squeeze out where the kids were. The usual suspects included a lot of the Hamas hieararchy that had been released from prison as part of Gilad Shalit deal. Hamas leadership in Gaza gets pissed and starts the shelling. Things intensify when a Palestinian teen is burned to death by Israeli teens as part of a "price tag" killing (you eff with us, this is the price you pay). More shelling.

    The Israelis see a political opening in Gaza to do what they've wanted to do ever since Gilad Shalit was captured...close the tunnels. Shalit was kidnapped by Hamas terrorists that came through the tunnels and there have been incursions since.

    This was almost a set piece with Hamas screwing up by giving the Israelis an opening and the Israelis playing like Gary Kasparov.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    EdB wrote: »
    Israel is doing a good job of keeping its citizens from being harmed by rockets. The violence will not stop until the Palestinians have a reason to stop shooting rockets at Israel. They say they have had enough of the Israel blockade and occupation of Gaza for all these years and it has to stop. When that happens the rockets might stop. Israel has not been able to stop the rockets with their superior weapons so their military action will not solve the problem, just get more and more innocents killed.

    So what do you suggest?

    1) Gaza isn't occupied. The Israelis left in 2005.
    2) Gaza is blockaded by the Israelis and the Egyptians. Why doesn't Hamas kill Egyptian civilians?
    3) The Israelis aren't going to stop the blockade until Hamas agrees to recognize its right to exist. If Canada was our sworn enemy, should we allow it to import goods that could be used to kill our people?

    Israel isn't going to recognize a government that includes its sworn enemy. It's not going to help that enemy by lifting the blockade.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    3) The Israelis aren't going to stop the blockade until Hamas agrees to recognize its right to exist. If Canada was our sworn enemy, should we allow it to import goods that could be used to kill our people?

    Yeah you never know, they may import GMO corn.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    All those years Gaza **** about the Israelis and Egyptians not allowing imports of concrete? Now we know why.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Yeah because none of it could be used for the homes and schools the Israelis keep destroying. For crying out loud, we even let Iraq import food and medical supplies and allowed Iraqis to fish off their own coast. BTW you cannot have an absolute blockade of Gaza and claim there is no occupation.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    LOL. The problem with your point is that the concrete that does get in? That's been used for tunnels, not for homebuilding.

    If Hamas really cared about the blockade they'd close the tunnels and turn over the missiles. They can't seriously think they will ever win an acre of Israeli land let alone push the Jews into the sea. So what's the point? Turn the weapons in and the Israelis wouldn't have the political support to keep the blockade going for longer than a weekend.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    The blockade has been going on for 8 years! This didn't start yesterday. I know it is difficult to grasp, but Israel is not infallible. Sometimes they are no better than their enemies. People are struggling and when you are starving and poor, it is difficult to get past the enemy of my enemy is my friend. With a thriving economy and peace, Hamas withers on the vine.

    BTW Hamas was created by Israel.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    The blockade has been going on for 8 years! This didn't start yesterday. I know it is difficult to grasp, but Israel is not infallible. Sometimes they are no better than their enemies.

    Israel is to Hamas like the U.S. is to Al Qaeda or ISIS. That's the only moral equivalence that's even remotely sane.

    The argument "that if Israel only lifted the blockade, it would all be better" is no different from the "if the U.S. only pulled out of this country or that country, Al Qaeda would leave us alone." Both are B.S., and I know you don't buy the latter, so I can't even imagine why you would believe the former.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    I am sorry but you cannot get people to stop hating you by murdering their children.

    Try reading, I never said Hamas would leave Israel alone. But as long as Israel continues to punish all of Palestine for the behavior of Hamas you will create allies to Hamas. It is about as useful a strategy as invading Iraq to eliminate Al Queda. In a peaceful and prosperous Palestine, Hamas loses the support of the average Palestinian.

    Your argument is similar to the idiots on the right that say that the only way to eliminate terrorism is to kill all the Muslims.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,811 Senior Member
    Killing and murdering are very different things. I've seen no evidence of murder. Sadly, there is a lot of killing.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Sorry, killing then. However I don't think the parents of those children are concerned with the distinction. I get that these children are not targeted. In fact I stated so in my first post. Still though at some point there are diminishing returns.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I am sorry but you cannot get people to stop hating you by murdering their children.

    You're absolutely right, so now go back to what I said. If Hamas ceded to Israel's demands and turned over its missiles and closed the tunnels, no more children would be "murdered."
    Try reading, I never said Hamas would leave Israel alone.
    You lose the argument right here. If Hamas isn't going to leave Israel alone, then why in the world should Israel lift the blockade and make it even easier for Hamas to kill Israelis? Netanyahu's job isn't to make life nicer for Palestinians. His sole job is to keep Israelis safe.
    But as long as Israel continues to punish all of Palestine for the behavior of Hamas you will create allies to Hamas. It is about as useful a strategy as invading Iraq to eliminate Al Queda. In a peaceful and prosperous Palestine, Hamas loses the support of the average Palestinian.

    Just for the record, we're talking about Gaza, not the West Bank.
    Now the logic that Israel creates allies for Hamas is absurd. You've already told Ed that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. You think that creates allies?
    In a peaceful and prosperous Palestine, Hamas loses the support of the average Palestinian.

    This is such a pipe dream.

    Can you name one Arab nation to use as an example? There was once a peaceful and very prosperous Arab country called Lebanon. But not so much any more.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Just for the record, we're talking about Gaza, not the West Bank.
    Now the logic that Israel creates allies for Hamas is absurd. You've already told Ed that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. You think that creates allies?

    Not all of those civilians are human shields.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    If Hamas isn't going to leave Israel alone, then why in the world should Israel lift the blockade and make it even easier for Hamas to kill Israelis?

    How about to relieve the human suffering of average Palestinians. Like I said we even let Saddam import food and medicine.

    Why should Hamas stop attacking Israel if they have no incentive?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-184920411.html


    La Paz (AFP) - Bolivia on Wednesday renounced a visa exemption agreement with Israel in protest over its offensive in Gaza, and declared it a terrorist state.

    President Evo Morales announced the move during a talk with a group of educators in the city of Cochabamba.

    It "means, in other words, we are declaring (Israel) a terrorist state," he said.

    The treaty has allowed Israelis to travel freely to Bolivia without a visa since 1972.

    Morales said the Gaza offensive shows "that Israel is not a guarantor of the principles of respect for life and the elementary precepts of rights that govern the peaceful and harmonious coexistence of our international community".
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0

    Unfortunately, or fortunately, I can't open Beinart's latest scribe. But this is who he is...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Beinart.

    Since I don't get my talking points from the AJC (I mean, who has time, I'm too busy getting my talking points from Rush and Hannity), why should I get my talking point from some other NYC ****?

    You want to check out somebody with a clue. Somebody who's actually dealt with the parties and saw it all first hand? Go watch Hillary make John Stewart her ****...

    http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/179536/watch-hillary-clinton-vs-jon-stewart-on-gaza
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    EdB wrote: »
    http://news.yahoo.com/bolivia-declares-israel-terrorist-state-184920411.html


    La Paz (AFP) - Bolivia on Wednesday renounced a visa exemption agreement with Israel in protest over its offensive in Gaza, and declared it a terrorist state.

    President Evo Morales announced the move during a talk with a group of educators in the city of Cochabamba.

    It "means, in other words, we are declaring (Israel) a terrorist state," he said.

    The treaty has allowed Israelis to travel freely to Bolivia without a visa since 1972.

    Morales said the Gaza offensive shows "that Israel is not a guarantor of the principles of respect for life and the elementary precepts of rights that govern the peaceful and harmonious coexistence of our international community".

    Bolivia, this is where Klaus Barbie hung out, right?
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    How about to relieve the human suffering of average Palestinians. Like I said we even let Saddam import food and medicine.

    Why should Hamas stop attacking Israel if they have no incentive?

    So I guess we struck out on the pipe dream.

    The incentive is the lifting of the blockade. Of course, this isn't all that much of an incentive to Hamas. Ismael Haniyeh looks like he eats pretty well. Travels the world, well groomed, Armani suit, a bit overweight...looks like a Goldman banker.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Not all of those civilians are human shields.
    Hamas fires its missiles from crowded urban areas... Every Gazan is a human shield. Just depends own whether or not it's his or her day to be nominated.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,811 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Bolivia, this is where Klaus Barbie hung out, right?

    Along with other formerly high-ranking Germans.

    But that's not the point. Morales' actions have little or nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with tweaking Uncle Sam's beard.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,181 Senior Member
    Why should Hamas stop attacking Israel if they have no incentive?

    Why will they ever stop attacking Israel when they have stated they want them wipped off the map? You can give them all the food, medicine, concrete, etc in the world and they will still hate the Israeli's for being alive.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Hamas fires its missiles from crowded urban areas... Every Gazan is a human shield. Just depends own whether or not it's his or her day to be nominated.

    There wasn't a single missile at the UNRA school they blew up yesterday.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    So I guess we struck out on the pipe dream.

    The incentive is the lifting of the blockade. Of course, this isn't all that much of an incentive to Hamas. Ismael Haniyeh looks like he eats pretty well. Travels the world, well groomed, Armani suit, a bit overweight...looks like a Goldman banker.

    Israel refuses to lift the blockade even if Hamas agrees to a cease fire. BTW that blockade works both ways. They cannot export either. They cannot fish beyond 3 miles. This is only sustainable if the goal is the elimination of the Palestinian people.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,579 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Unfortunately, or fortunately, I can't open Beinart's latest scribe. But this is who he is...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Beinart.

    Yeah so? ....
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan

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