So If Pro-Russian Seperatists

jbillyjbilly Senior MemberPosts: 5,181 Senior Member
With Russian supplied missiles can be shown to have shot down MH17 what do we do?

They have proven themselves (assuming it is really separatists) to be pretty **** proficient at downing aircraft lately.

http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-separatists-have-shot-down-multiple-aircraft-over-the-past-month-2014-7
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Replies

  • bakerloobakerloo Banned Posts: 980 Senior Member
    We apologize.
    "So what is big is not always the Trout nor the Deer but the chance, the being there. And what is full is not necessarily the creel nor the freezer, but the memory."
    Aldo Leopold
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 5,181 Senior Member
    LMFAO. POTD.

    Discussion over.
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    I'm curious what options you feel we legitimately have?
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    The separatists have captured a lot of equipment, so it's not even clear if the SAM was Russian supplied. If it was Russian supplied, we pile on even more sanctions.

    That's about it we can do.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    jbilly wrote: »
    With Russian supplied missiles can be shown to have shot down MH17 what do we do?

    They have proven themselves (assuming it is really separatists) to be pretty **** proficient at downing aircraft lately.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-separatists-have-shot-down-multiple-aircraft-over-the-past-month-2014-7

    The missile system used involves some fairly complicated switchology (that's a term of art from my Tanker days) and its unlikely that Putin's goons in Ukraine could use it without either Russian advisers or Russian training.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    The missile system used involves some fairly complicated switchology (that's a term of art from my Tanker days) and its unlikely that Putin's goons in Ukraine could use it without either Russian advisers or Russian training.

    Apparently, the Ukraine army possesses the BUK missile systems that could have shot down the plane. This is a video of the Ukraine army missiles near Donetsk.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=be9_1405628738
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Yeah, that reminds me, we should check in on Putin's propaganda wing and see what's shakin.'

    http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/

    Shocking.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    EdB wrote: »
    Apparently, the Ukraine army possesses the BUK missile systems that could have shot down the plane. This is a video of the Ukraine army missiles near Donetsk.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=be9_1405628738

    What part of "the separatists have captured a lot of equipment" did you fail to understand? Who do you think they would capture it from? France?
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Steven wrote: »
    Who do you think they would capture it from? France?

    Well, that wouldn't be a bad guess. :)
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    What part of "the separatists have captured a lot of equipment" did you fail to understand? Who do you think they would capture it from? France?

    None.

    I now understand that part of that equipment the Ukraine army has includes the BUK missile system.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I could bleep with Ed for a while about being Putin's useful idiot, but the appalling loss of life, including a prominent AIDS researcher, an Indiana University Grad Student, 189 Dutch citizens, and three children from one family seems to warrant a more somber tone. So I won't go there.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    I could bleep with Ed for a while about being Putin's useful idiot, but the appalling loss of life, including a prominent AIDS researcher, an Indiana University Grad Student, 189 Dutch citizens, and three children from one family seems to warrant a more somber tone. So I won't go there.

    You just did. Whose useful idiot are you?
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    That Russian propaganda network is at it again.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/sara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html

    Corespondent Sara Firth's announcement came nearly two hours after she stated on Twitter that RT anchors "do work for Putin" and spread "lies," in a conversation with RT London correspondent Polly Boiko. Firth alleged that the network asks its anchors to "obscure the truth," and now she is saying she's had enough.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,593 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    That Russian propaganda network is at it again.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/18/sara-firth-resigns-russia-today-lies-anchor_n_5598815.html

    Corespondent Sara Firth's announcement came nearly two hours after she stated on Twitter that RT anchors "do work for Putin" and spread "lies," in a conversation with RT London correspondent Polly Boiko. Firth alleged that the network asks its anchors to "obscure the truth," and now she is saying she's had enough.

    Wait a month ago these were the good guys what happened?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    Wait a month ago these were the good guys what happened?

    I never said they were the good guys, I praised Abby Martin for her excellent reporting on "Breaking the Set". She says the Russian government does not censor her and she has the freedom to report whatever she wants to. She criticized Russia for their actions in Crimea and she realizes the realpolitik of propaganda of both the Russians and the U.S. She is very critical of the U.S. foreign policy and rightfully so.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 9,815 Senior Member
    Russia used to be part of a harsh dictatorship. It had a brief moment of parliamentary rule - as it did after the Russian Revolution - but now is a third world kleptocracy with modern weapons and a Stalin/Tsar wannabe at the helm.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • WetdogWetdog Senior Member Posts: 5,149 Senior Member
    Hate to chime in on this but what the hell.

    Ed, Russian operators shot down the airliner. The missile system was not captured from the Ukrainians, there are satellite photos of it going back to Russia. Chimps can't fire the thing, they need training. The leader of the Ukraine separatists is a Col in the Russian army intelligence. What a surprise.

    But maybe you'll believe instead what the Russians said, that the plane which was flying at 30,000 feet and was shot down by some Ukrainian air to ground assault plane that can't fly above 23,000ft. And of course the U.S. is behind it so it can force a war with Russia. groan
    I find the assault on free thought disturbing,
    I find the willingness to give it up frightening.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,593 Senior Member
    I hate to make a **** reference. But these tactics sound similar to what was used in the Sudetenland.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • WetdogWetdog Senior Member Posts: 5,149 Senior Member
    I wonder who will be next. It has been implied that Estonia, Latvia could be next, along with parts of Poland.
    I find the assault on free thought disturbing,
    I find the willingness to give it up frightening.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,593 Senior Member
    It depends. Which of those is considering joining the EU?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Wetdog wrote: »
    Hate to chime in on this but what the hell.

    Ed, Russian operators shot down the airliner. The missile system was not captured from the Ukrainians, there are satellite photos of it going back to Russia. Chimps can't fire the thing, they need training.

    No kidding. I saw pictures of the control panel. Its a serious piece of equipment, not a shoulder-fired RPG. Additionally NORAD detected the launch from Separatist-controlled territory, and quickly ruled out Ukraine as the belligerent. Putin's good for this, no matter what RT says about Ukrainian culpability.

    But that's not the worst part. Bad things happen in war, including the (usually inadvertent) targeting of civilian airliners. The worst part is these **** thugs wouldn't allow investigators access to the crash site and demanded a cease-fire as a precondition to removal of the bodies. That literally beggars belief. I'm actually stunned by that. Russia has to know how it looks.
  • WetdogWetdog Senior Member Posts: 5,149 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    No kidding. I saw pictures of the control panel. Its a serious piece of equipment, not a shoulder-fired RPG. Additionally NORAD detected the launch from Separatist-controlled territory, and quickly ruled out Ukraine as the belligerent. Putin's good for this, no matter what RT says about Ukrainian culpability.

    But that's not the worst part. Bad things happen in war, including the (usually inadvertent) targeting of civilian airliners. The worst part is these **** thugs wouldn't allow investigators access to the crash site and demanded a cease-fire as a precondition to removal of the bodies. That literally beggars belief. I'm actually stunned by that. Russia has to know how it looks.

    Russia, or should I say Putin knows just what it looks like, unfortunately he doesn't care a great deal. All he cares about is his support at home. This is becoming a problem as it's the "oligarchs" who are keeping him in power. I heard last night that the oligarchs are getting really nervous about them losing money due to this egomaniac. Putin didn't see that coming. he has to be a bit worried. Maybe he'll just kill a few and take their money to keep the others in line. He knows only one way and that is brute force and lies.
    I find the assault on free thought disturbing,
    I find the willingness to give it up frightening.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I hate to make a **** reference. But these tactics sound similar to what was used in the Sudetenland.

    No need to go there. Just reference "thermite."
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    No need to go there. Just reference "thermite."

    What is that supposed to mean?
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 23,593 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    The worst part is these **** thugs wouldn't allow investigators access to the crash site and demanded a cease-fire as a precondition to removal of the bodies. That literally beggars belief. I'm actually stunned by that. Russia has to know how it looks.

    That actually does not seem unreasonable to me. We will go out into that open terrain and recover those bodies, but you have to promise not to kill us while we do it.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    EdB wrote: »
    What is that supposed to mean?

    What do you think it means?
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    Wetdog wrote: »
    Hate to chime in on this but what the hell.

    Ed, Russian operators shot down the airliner. The missile system was not captured from the Ukrainians, there are satellite photos of it going back to Russia. Chimps can't fire the thing, they need training. The leader of the Ukraine separatists is a Col in the Russian army intelligence. What a surprise.

    But maybe you'll believe instead what the Russians said, that the plane which was flying at 30,000 feet and was shot down by some Ukrainian air to ground assault plane that can't fly above 23,000ft. And of course the U.S. is behind it so it can force a war with Russia. groan

    Michael, you seem to have reached a conclusion, what evidence have you seen? I prefer to wait until I see evidence of what actually happened. This is the Russian evidence presented so far. I haven't yet seen the U.S. evidence of what happened. I don't believe either side's conclusions based on circumstantial evidence.

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-presents-its-account-of-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-1405952441

    Russia Presents Its Account of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash

    Moscow Presents Images It Argues Show Ukraine Fighter Jet or Missiles May Have Been Involved

    But he said that Russian radar had spotted a second aircraft in the ill-fated airliner's vicinity just before the crash and that it was likely a Ukrainian fighter jet. A graphic that Gen. Makushev said was based on radar data depicted four commercial planes in the area shortly before the crash, as well as the alleged Ukrainian fighter jet.

    Gen. Makushev said that Russian radars could only spot the aircraft at the point of its ascension because the on-duty radars only detected objects at above 5,000 meters. Russian radars spotted the unidentified plane patrolling in the vicinity of Flight 17, "controlling the development of the situation," he said.

    The defense ministry also said it registered the Su-25 fighter jet ascending within close range of several civil aircrafts, including the Malaysia Airlines jet.

    Another top military official, Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, said at the same news conference that the jet came as close as 1.8 miles to Flight 17, which is well within the range of the air-to-air missiles it is usually equipped with.

    He said Russia is prepared to hand all of the information it has to the European authorities, which included satellite imagery and data from its own radar.

    Russian defense ministry officials also claimed that a U.S. satellite was spotted at the time of the Flight 17 crash and asked that the U.S. release the satellite images from that time. The U.S. didn't immediately comment on the claim.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 2,926 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    What do you think it means?


    I have no idea, what does it mean?

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