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The Iraq open thread

Lots to talk about. Neocons, Barack Hussein Obama, ISIS, Maliki, etc. Post your stuff here. Include links.

Here's something. Very sad.

http://jeffweintraub.blogspot.com/2014/06/feisal-istrabadi-on-tragedy-of-iraq.html
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Replies

  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    I don't get really interested in golf unless Tiger is playing.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,022 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    I don't get really interested in golf unless Tiger is playing.

    I hear the sand trap is a real ****.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,684 Senior Member
    It's all Ted's fault.

    No, wait!
    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    I had high hopes.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,022 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    I had high hopes.

    For the Lodge...surely you jest.

    Ok, I will be serious for a change. First it was no troops. The it was 275 for the embassy. Oh and drone patrols, lets not forget those, and now this:

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/18/us-now-flying-surveillance-missions-over-iraq/

    Can we start a pool on when we start taking shots?

    I actually have no problem with any of the actions taken, except for the stupid statements of saying we aren't going to do them then do.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    Well, I agree with him. Though I do think the wrong way to remove Saddam was through an invasion by a foreign power.

    However L Paul Bremer had have died in a plane crash on the way to Iraq, we may be looking at a much different Iraq.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Debaathification was a huge mistake. I personally think it was THE mistake. Its hard to know, though, how things might have turned out.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 3,099 Senior Member
    I'd contribute but you don't listen to me or take me seriously.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Debaathification was a huge mistake. I personally think it was THE mistake. Its hard to know, though, how things might have turned out.

    Interesting to note that the insurgency began right about that time. If we had maintained the military we wouldn't have had to spend so much time and money training them. However given their history, we cannot say for sure that they also wouldn't have laid down their weapons and surrendered to ISIS.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    Alternative History is a fun topic generally. In the case of Iraq there are too many versions and everyone has their favorite. I personally love the one where Gore wins in 1999 and pays attention to the warning about Bin Laden and the twin towers come down without any planes hitting them (it was the termites with thermite you know).
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 4,372 Senior Member
    Termite or thermite?
    That's an interesting idea. Space age steel-devouring termites, bred in a special lab on Plum Island and/or area 51. Or, just a single humongous one, as you imply. A terrible termite with thermite? It would make an interesting movie.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,684 Senior Member
    Pushing Saddam out of Kuwait was a reasonable act, and leaving him to keep the lid on in Iraq was a wise one.

    The W (God told me to invade, and I'm more hung than Dad) and Cheney (who should have been impeached and convicted of reckless adventurism) Gulf War II is the debacle that lead us to the current mess. They learned absolutely nothing from the civil war following Tito's death- Once the lid-keeper is gone there is no one to keep the lid on a pot full of woe.
    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    Once the lid-keeper is gone there is no one to keep the lid on a pot full of woe.

    It would seem you're not much a believer in "responsibility to protect?"
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    Responsibility to protect what or whom?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    You had 30,000 professionally trained soldiers that when they saw 800 dilettantes with black flags scurried faster than **** roaches in a bug spray commercial. This is not even remotely our fault or our responsibility, nor is it a regime we can safely support.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    It would seem you're not much a believer in "responsibility to protect?"

    As a flaming liberal I'm a firm believer in protecting the innocent, the helpless, the oppressed. When 11,000 ISIS militants can run off 20-30,000 Iraqi soldiers I'm not so sure we should be protecting their ****. Let's have that Iraqi army we spent (insert some insane amount here) building grow a set first. It's their country now.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    I was referencing despots in general guys.

    "Thou shall not stand idly by while your neighbor's blood is spilled." - Leviticus
  • BuffcoBuffco Senior Member Posts: 10,585 Senior Member
    dryflie wrote: »
    As a flaming liberal I'm a firm believer in protecting the innocent, the helpless, the oppressed. When 11,000 ISIS militants can run off 20-30,000 Iraqi soldiers I'm not so sure we should be protecting their ****. Let's have that Iraqi army we spent (insert some insane amount here) building grow a set first. It's their country now.

    I believe in protecting. Until I don't.

    It's funny that some have laughed at the idea of nation building in 10 short years, but then expect the Iraqi army to have a complete and total culture change in their first real test.

    I've been reading some stuff an Army sergeant has been writing the last few days. He's related several stories about his Iraqi counterparts begging them to stay to see the job done. After 2008, the tone changed, and the Iraqi army knew it. They were told we would stay, the U.S. is an honorable country. The Iraqi army officers pleaded with the brass to allow them to travel to D.C. to plead their case to the president.

    It's easy to sit here in the comfort of my a/c and judge, one way or another. I put more stock in what someone who's been there has to say.
  • bakerloobakerloo Banned Posts: 980 Senior Member
    Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
    Merica!
    I can't freaking believe that it took 3 pages before I had to say it. :rolleyes:
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    Buffco wrote: »
    After 2008, the tone changed, and the Iraqi army knew it. They were told we would stay, the U.S. is an honorable country. The Iraqi army officers pleaded with the brass to allow them to travel to D.C. to plead their case to the president.

    And we would have stayed if al-Maliki had agreed to our terms regarding troop immunity. He did not and Obama had NO choice but to leave. If he had caved to al-Maliki the GOP would have had his head.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,684 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    It would seem you're not much a believer in "responsibility to protect?"

    There were several old treads on this topic. I said then and still believe it is wrong to refuse visas to those Iraqis who worked for or with us. We should evacuate them if they wish to come here or go to another country that will accept them.

    But I do not believe we owe anything to the current govt.
    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    I don't think we owe the Iraqi government either.

    I was referring to "Once the lid-keeper is gone there is no one to keep the lid on a pot full of woe."

    Saddam and Qadaffi were bad guys, but they kept the lid on. Where's the line at which responsibility to protect outweighs keeping the lid on?
    To my mind, there are great arguments supporting both - which is probably why we seem to be continually lurching between the two.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    At what point do the Iraqis have to tend their own pot? We were getting negative return on our time and money. Hell ISIS didn't even exist until we invaded the country. 30,000 Iraqi soldiers should have been more than enough to wipe those guys out in a single battle. All they needed was something they felt like fighting for. If they don't see a reason to fight for their own country, I don't see a reason that we should.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    At what point do the Iraqis have to tend their own pot? We were getting negative return on our time and money. Hell ISIS didn't even exist until we invaded the country. 30,000 Iraqi soldiers should have been more than enough to wipe those guys out in a single battle. All they needed was something they felt like fighting for. If they don't see a reason to fight for their own country, I don't see a reason that we should.

    Are you talking to me?
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    Not arguing. Just adding to the thought.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    Well, for what it's worth, ISIS started in 2000, albeit under a different name. The organization was started by Zarqawi
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,022 Senior Member
    We were getting negative return on our time and money.

    I'm with Comic on this one. We should be getting our money and soldiers lives worth out of being there. We should have taken and held all the oil so we could be paying $0.99 a gallon at the pump. Good point Chris! :D
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 49,774 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    We should have taken and held all the oil so we could be paying $0.99 a gallon at the pump.

    Too bad Bush and Obama didn't take Ed seriously.

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