How is this guy different than George Zimmerman?

fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior MemberPosts: 24,275 Senior Member
'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
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Replies

  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Let me get this straight.
    Giles is not involved in a fight. He goes to his car and gets a gun. Then he walks back into the middle of the fight. He -surprise, surprise- gets hit in the middle of this total brawl he walked into on purpose. He then pulls his gun and shoots the guy who punched him.

    It's 'cause he's black, right?
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    How is that different than what George Zimmerman did?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Are we going to assume that Zimmerman told the truth? If not, I can't be bothered.
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    it can't be because of his color, because racism is no longer an issue in the US.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,180 Senior Member
    One night, shortly after Giles arrived at a nightclub in Tallahassee with some friends, a huge brawl broke out among 30 to 40 fraternity brothers from nearby Florida A&M University. Giles wasn't involved, but went to his car and retrieved his gun before going back to the club to find his friends. Randomly, someone from the crowd punched Giles, knocking him to the ground. Afraid for his life, Giles shot his attacker in the leg and wounded three men, none of whom died.

    Nothing good ever happens at a nightclub involving drunk people and guns.

    That and it's illegal to carry a gun into a bar/nightclub in Florida.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    First, Zimmerman didn't plead stand your ground. Zimmerman didn't need to since he couldn't retreat - he, according to him, was lying on the ground, Martin straddling him, getting his brain pan bashed on the sidewalk. Zimmerman pleaded the basic right to self defense.

    Second, Giles' lawyers told him not to plead stand your ground. There must have been some reason they thought it wouldn't apply (I bet they were white and wanted him to go to jail).

    Maybe the guy who hit him walked off and Giles then shot him or something. His lawyers may have felt that the jury would find that his fear was unreasonable. Unfortunately, there are no court transcripts that I can find.

    Anyway, 25 years seems a lot, but that's an issue of mandatory sentencing.
  • Scott ButnerScott Butner Senior Member Posts: 3,918 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Anyway, 25 years seems a lot, but that's an issue of mandatory sentencing.

    or perhaps, of differential sentencing for black defendants (which yes, is statistically real).

    I personally don't see that strong of a similarity to the Zimmerman case, and think this case proves nothing -- but yes, the law is applied differently based on color in this country.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Are we going to assume that Zimmerman told the truth? If not, I can't be bothered.

    I am assuming he told the truth about leaving his car expecting a confrontation with a suspected criminal while possessing a gun.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    or perhaps, of differential sentencing for black defendants (which yes, is statistically real).

    I personally don't see that strong of a similarity to the Zimmerman case, and think this case proves nothing -- but yes, the law is applied differently based on color in this country.

    My question is, in what way is it different? He carried a gun into a potentially confrontational situation, and fired when he was in fear of his life. To be honest I am having a hard time figuring out how there is not a strong similarity.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    First, Zimmerman didn't plead stand your ground. Zimmerman didn't need to since he couldn't retreat - he, according to him, was lying on the ground, Martin straddling him, getting his brain pan bashed on the sidewalk. Zimmerman pleaded the basic right to self defense.

    How is this different?

    The facts are he shot him while he was being hit in order to get the guy off of him.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    joekrz wrote: »
    One night, shortly after Giles arrived at a nightclub in Tallahassee with some friends, a huge brawl broke out among 30 to 40 fraternity brothers from nearby Florida A&M University. Giles wasn't involved, but went to his car and retrieved his gun before going back to the club to find his friends. Randomly, someone from the crowd punched Giles, knocking him to the ground. Afraid for his life, Giles shot his attacker in the leg and wounded three men, none of whom died.

    Nothing good ever happens at a nightclub involving drunk people and guns.

    That and it's illegal to carry a gun into a bar/nightclub in Florida.
    Other witnesses testified that Thrower, having heard of an attack on one of his fraternity brothers, was outside of the nightclub pacing with his fists clenched and, in the middle of the brawl, “leapfrogged” from the crowd to hit Giles. Despite all of that, according to the Florida state prosecutors, Giles had no right to use deadly force that night.

    Not inside the club.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I am assuming he told the truth about leaving his car expecting a confrontation with a suspected criminal while possessing a gun.

    This wasn't Zimmerman's testimony. Zimmerman always carried. He testified that he was no longer following Martin, as ordered by the police, when Martin jumped him.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    How is this different?

    The facts are he shot him while he was being hit in order to get the guy off of him.

    And you know this how? I can't find anything to suggest this. That Giles was hit, yes? But that the guy was on him?
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,180 Senior Member
    My question is, in what way is it different?

    He intentionally went to his car to get a gun and return into the club with it...which is illegal. He could have just left the club and went out to his car and drove away.

    There is zero similarity between this and the Zimmerman case.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    This wasn't Zimmerman's testimony. Zimmerman always carried. He testified that he was no longer following Martin, as ordered by the police, when Martin jumped him.

    There was also testimony of Martin complaining he was being followed by some cracker. In either case Giles was not following or confronting his attacker.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    joekrz wrote: »
    He intentionally went to his car to get a gun and return into the club with it...which is illegal. He could have just left the club and went out to his car and drove away.

    There is zero similarity between this and the Zimmerman case.

    He was not in the club, he was outside the club where he was legally permitted to carry.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    And you know this how? I can't find anything to suggest this. That Giles was hit, yes? But that the guy was on him?

    I can't find that article now. Do you have one that says the guy was shot while walking away? Giles claimed he was in fear of his life.
    “He doesn’t have to think he’s going to get killed, even though people looking in from the outside thought someone could get killed,” said defense attorney Don Pumphrey in his closing. “If the defendant was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, where he had a right to stand, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.”
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,180 Senior Member
    He was not in the club, he was outside the club where he was legally permitted to carry.

    I understand that, as I read your report you posted about the incident that happened outside.

    However....He intentionally went outside of the club to his car to get a gun, with the intention to return inside the club...which is illegal. He could have just left the club and went out to his car and drove away. Instead he decided to return to the club with a gun and randomly got punched before he made it back inside.

    At the time this guy decided to walk out to his car and get a gun, he was not being bothered or attacked by anyone. No similarity to Zimmerman case.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    But he wasn't inside the club so that his intention irrelevant. At the time that Zimmerman got outside of his car with a gun he was not being bothered or attacked either. Zimmerman also had a choice to stay inside his car as he was instructed. If that was not a relevant fact in his case it is irrelevant here also.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    I cannot find any testimony whatsoever. However, I've seen it reported repeatedly that Giles shot into the crowd hitting Thrower (and wounding two others), so it doesn't sound like Thrower was on him.

    Edit to add: If Thrower was on Giles, we wouldn't be discussing stand your ground.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Well it doesn't make sense that he could be in fear of his life or testify to such if the guy was walking away.
    The aggressor’s friend also admitted that she thought the aggressor may seriously harm or kill someone that night. Michael Giles found himself in danger and fired one shot to the aggressor’s leg. - See more at: http://www.radiofacts.com/stand-ground-law-doesnt-apply/#sthash.FgqAPwRT.dpuf
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    I did find a conservative site that asserts that the guy was walking away. If that was indeed the case, then I concede the point.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    This might be the answer:

    "A defendant, under Florida law, loses his “stand your ground” defense if he provoked the encounter — but he retains traditional self-defense if he reasonably believed his life was in danger and his only recourse was to employ deadly force."

    A jury might think that Giles provoked the encounter by entering the fray, so he had a duty to retreat, if he could. If Thrower wasn't on him, a jury might have believed Giles had other recourses other than deadly force. Even if we believe Zim provoked the encounter, he was getting his head bashed in.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Except there is no testimony stating he entered the fray and I found one site that stated witnesses testified he was trying to avoid it.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Even if we believe Zim provoked the encounter, he was getting his head bashed in.

    Not even remotely believable.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Not even remotely believable.

    I thought we believed he provoked it.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Except there is no testimony stating he entered the fray and I found one site that stated witnesses testified he was trying to avoid it.

    Well, he could have avoided it by staying in his car.
    But let's say he didn't provoke it by walking into the fray. The big difference is still that he has to rely on stand your ground and Zimmerman didn't.

    Personally, I'd give Giles a medal, but the law's the law. Scott should pardon him.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    So could have George Zimmerman.

    BTW he was trying to find and potentially protect his friends.

    Scott only pardons medicare frauds.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,275 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    I thought we believed he provoked it.

    I don't believe he was getting his head bashed in. The evidence does not support that. His injuries were not even sufficient to keep him in the hospital.

    I would fully support the verdict in Giles case had the jury in Zimmerman's trial come to the same verdict. I don't like gun toting vigilantes. It seems there are some gun right advocates however that only support certain gun toting vigilantes.

    It appears that if you want Shawn Hannity and the NRA to defend your rights, you better not have too high of a melanin count.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,180 Senior Member
    But he wasn't inside the club so that his intention irrelevant.

    The way I originally read the article it sounded like he was in the night club. I stand corrected.

    But again, he could have left and went home and went to bed. He didn't have to go and get a gun and return with it for any reason at all. My guess is that beer muscles were in force.

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