SaltyDancinDave

13

Replies

  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    George K wrote: »
    I don't know enough about the Ryan speech to comment on it, but really Sherb, do you actually believe that "inner city" and to a lesser degree "urban" are not frequently used as code?

    While true that the three factors you cite above are higher among blacks than among whites, few scholars would dispute that that is a lingering heritage of slavery. Slavery destroyed the concepts of stable marriage, family life and personal responsibility among enslaved blacks, and kept them uneducated and largely illiterate as well. The "great migration" brought millions of the children and grandchildren of former slaves to Northern cities. All this led to a continuing cycle of problems that help make black poverty and the resulting crime rate higher than for whites.

    BTW - "Appalachia" is almost as much a code word as "inner city", conjuring up images of dangerously inbred hill billies living drunk and wanton in dilapidated cabins with old washing machines as lawn decor. Ever watch "Justified"?

    This......

    But let's not also forget that while poor, most of the people in the actual Inner City, get up and go to work. They are just jobs that do not pay very well because the 1% insists on not actually trickling down anything.

    Oh and having served Sherb, you would think that you would appreciate that those same inner city youths are over represented amongst our nation's military. Those lazy good for nothings.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    One would think the left would be grateful that the other side is attempting to deal with the problem, but no.

    In what way is Paul Ryan attempting to deal with the problem? Blaming the victims of socio-economic system the requires that someone has to be a loser? Is that solving the problem? Taking food from poor people's mouths while cutting funding for social services and public schools is solving the problem? Insisting that people fight for scraps in an economy where there are 3 unemployed people for every job opening is solving the problem? Blaming unions for trying to get working class people a seat at the negotiating table for a decent living is solving the problem? In what way is Paul Ryan offering a solution other than pitting poor whites against poor blacks. Again just because it makes you uncomfortable does not mean it is not there. How the hell do you think Reagan got white union members to vote for the man that busted up the Air Traffic Controllers Union? He put a black face on poverty and made people comfortable saying the problem was "those people." The welfare queen driving her Cadillac to pick up her food stamps. You know how dishonest those people are. They are all lazy good for nothing thieves. That is how.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Who gives a rat's **** about Robert Byrd? Hint, I never voted for him.

    Nobody's EVER voted for Rush Limbaugh.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    George K wrote: »
    While true that the three factors you cite above are higher among blacks than among whites, few scholars would dispute that that is a lingering heritage of slavery. Slavery destroyed the concepts of stable marriage, family life and personal responsibility among enslaved blacks, and kept them uneducated and largely illiterate as well. The "great migration" brought millions of the children and grandchildren of former slaves to Northern cities. All this led to a continuing cycle of problems that help make black poverty and the resulting crime rate higher than for whites.

    Not sure this is an accurate description. Marriage rates were actually higher for African Americans than for whites until about 1960. While the single-parent birth rate for African Americans has always been higher than for whites, the trends really began to diverge post-1960 as well.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    The simple fact remains that the left has no answer for the intractable multigenerational poverty that exists in the inner city, except to cite racism. To even suggest that there may be variables independent of racism, like the marriage rate, government dependency, the breakdown of social norms, is to invite an accusation of racism and bigotry. This is the reason Charles Murray confined his latest study on poverty to whites. He didn't need or want the hassle. All of these problems exist to a greater or lesser degree in Appalachia too. But try to talk about poverty in the inner city, and suddenly its all a coded bat-signal for racists.

    Spot on Sherb.

    And here I started this thread just for fun and look what it's blossomed into.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,214 Senior Member
    In what way is Paul Ryan attempting to deal with the problem? Blaming the victims of socio-economic system the requires that someone has to be a loser? Is that solving the problem? Taking food from poor people's mouths while cutting funding for social services and public schools is solving the problem? Insisting that people fight for scraps in an economy where there are 3 unemployed people for every job opening is solving the problem? Blaming unions for trying to get working class people a seat at the negotiating table for a decent living is solving the problem? In what way is Paul Ryan offering a solution other than pitting poor whites against poor blacks. Again just because it makes you uncomfortable does not mean it is not there. How the hell do you think Reagan got white union members to vote for the man that busted up the Air Traffic Controllers Union? He put a black face on poverty and made people comfortable saying the problem was "those people." The welfare queen driving her Cadillac to pick up her food stamps. You know how dishonest those people are. They are all lazy good for nothing thieves. That is how.

    This has been a very enlightening discussion.. A lot of terminology I never paid too much attention to has taken on a whole new meaning..

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    "tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning to value the culture of work." - Paul Ryan

    "Racism: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." - Oxford Dictionary


    I'm failing to see racism here, even accepting that Ryan was referring to solely to African Americans.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Steven wrote: »
    "tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning to value the culture of work." - Paul Ryan

    "Racism: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." - Oxford Dictionary


    I'm failing to see racism here, even accepting that Ryan was referring to solely to African Americans.

    This is part of the problem. The definition has been significantly expanded. When Comic says that I have a "documented" history of not finding people to be racist, he's referring to the fact that I tend to subscribe to the narrow definition listed by you. The left's definition is broader, and includes such things as bigotry and prejudice, i.e., blacks are lazy. The left's working definition of racism might be summarized thusly: racism is skepticism regarding the culture, worldview, and social norms of a given race, while not extending such skepticism towards members of your own race. This definition is politically useful, certainly, and lacks only the virtue of clarity. Its quite easy to see this definition expanded to include race-neutral laws that have a disparate impact on minorities, for example.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    "tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning to value the culture of work." - Paul Ryan

    "Racism: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." - Oxford Dictionary


    I'm failing to see racism here, even accepting that Ryan was referring to solely to African Americans.

    Just because you are unwilling to see the fact that he is saying that this is a failure of African-American culture. That they are are culturally inferior. Only means you are unwilling to.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    In what way is Paul Ryan attempting to deal with the problem? Blaming the victims of socio-economic system the requires that someone has to be a loser? Is that solving the problem? Taking food from poor people's mouths while cutting funding for social services and public schools is solving the problem? Insisting that people fight for scraps in an economy where there are 3 unemployed people for every job opening is solving the problem? Blaming unions for trying to get working class people a seat at the negotiating table for a decent living is solving the problem? In what way is Paul Ryan offering a solution other than pitting poor whites against poor blacks. Again just because it makes you uncomfortable does not mean it is not there. How the hell do you think Reagan got white union members to vote for the man that busted up the Air Traffic Controllers Union? He put a black face on poverty and made people comfortable saying the problem was "those people." The welfare queen driving her Cadillac to pick up her food stamps. You know how dishonest those people are. They are all lazy good for nothing thieves. That is how.

    You're obviously very passionate about this subject, and on the internet at least, passion can substitute for deliberation. Indignation is a great tool for righting various wrongs, but it's inimical to reason, and absolutely deadly to policymaking. Nothing, but nothing in this fact free rant points towards a solution. Nothing.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    The left's working definition of racism might be summarized thusly: racism is skepticism regarding the culture, worldview, and social norms of a given race, while not extending such skepticism towards members of your own race.

    Explain to me how this is not saying that African-Americans possess characteristics that make them inferior. Are not culture, worldview, and social norms, characteristics? Any time you blame race and claim that a race is inferior, whether you claim it is genetic or not, is racism. Also it is ignorant. Like I said all of the African-Americans I have known work, some of them work 2 or 3 jobs. Paul Ryan is a race baiting idiot.

    I think some of you Republicans watch way too much Maury Povich.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    You're obviously very passionate about this subject, and on the internet at least, passion can substitute for deliberation. Indignation is a great tool for righting various wrongs, but it's inimical to reason, and absolutely deadly to policymaking. Nothing, but nothing in this fact free rant points towards a solution. Nothing.

    Answer the question. You are the one claiming Paul Ryan is offering a solution, what is it? Those are facts. He wants to gut the social safety net in some white fantasy that starvation will somehow create jobs and get those blacks off their lazy ****. So tell me, what are his solutions? Because I have seen nothing other than let them starve.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    "tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning to value the culture of work." - Paul Ryan

    "Racism: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races." - Oxford Dictionary


    I'm failing to see racism here, even accepting that Ryan was referring to solely to African Americans.

    Golly-gosh-gee, Steven, did your computer run out of electrons?

    From the OED:

    1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

    1.1 Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Explain to me how this is not saying that African-Americans possess characteristics that make them inferior. Are not culture, worldview, and social norms, characteristics? Any time you blame race and claim that a race is inferior, whether you claim it is genetic or not, is racism. Also it is ignorant. Like I said all of the African-Americans I have known work, some of them work 2 or 3 jobs. Paul Ryan is a race baiting idiot.

    I think some of you Republicans watch way too much Maury Povich.

    Is Maury Povich still on the air? I only watch the world fishing network.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    George K wrote: »
    Golly-gosh-gee, Steven, did your computer run out of electrons?

    From the OED:

    1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

    1.1 Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:

    Sorry George, not seeing how what Ryan is said is racist, even with the additional definition. Saying there is a problem with African American culture in the inner city might be incorrect, but it's not racist.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    That is because you don't want to.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Sorry George, not seeing how what Ryan is said is racist, even with the additional definition. Saying there is a problem with African American culture in the inner city might be incorrect, but it's not racist.

    I said earlier that I don't know the context of Ryan's remarks, so can not offer any comment on it. I was just quibbling with your selective quote from the OD (not OED) web site.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    That is because you don't want to.

    Honestly, this has been a fun thread, but I don't think we have anything to talk about. There's a presumption of bad faith from you regarding us, which mirrors the same presumption the left has generally for people like Paul Ryan.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Explain to me how this is not saying that African-Americans possess characteristics that make them inferior. Are not culture, worldview, and social norms, characteristics?

    Nope. None of these things are a specific characteristic of race. More to the point, Ryan is only referring to a subset of African-Americans who live in the milieu of the inner city. He is not saying all African-Americans have this culture, worldview or social norms.

    At worst. you can accuse him of stereotyping inner city African Americans, but the racism accusation doesn't stand.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    George K wrote: »
    I said earlier that I don't know the context of Ryan's remarks, so can not offer any comment on it. I was just quibbling with your selective quote from the OD (not OED) web site.

    I just took what came up. Nothing selective. And like I said, I don't see how the addition changes so much that my supposed selectivity changes a **** thing.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Nope. None of these things are a specific characteristic of race. More to the point, Ryan is only referring to a subset of African-Americans who live in the milieu of the inner city. He is not saying all African-Americans have this culture, worldview or social norms.

    At worst. you can accuse him of stereotyping inner city African Americans, but the racism accusation doesn't stand.

    Okay so he is only an ignorant bigot and not a racist. Got it.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    What I posted is what came up for me when I searched the free OD site.

    I thought that you and Sherb shared the same narrower definition of racism you quoted and reject the secondary definition I included.

    Apologies if I erred.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    sherb wrote: »
    Honestly, this has been a fun thread, but I don't think we have anything to talk about. There's a presumption of bad faith from you regarding us, which mirrors the same presumption the left has generally for people like Paul Ryan.

    Wait so you saying that I am a baffoon beholding to the left wing media was not a presumption of bad faith. It is not a presumption if you have demonstrated an unwillingness to remove your blinders based on a man's political affiliation.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 24,398 Senior Member
    So tell us what are these solutions you keep telling us about?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Wait so you saying that I am a buffoon beholding to the left wing media was not a presumption of bad faith?

    I will allow that it probably was. I'll strive to do better, as all of us should.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    You don't even get bigotry from his remark. Ignorance, maybe.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    George K wrote: »
    What I posted is what came up for me when I searched the free OD site.

    I thought that you and Sherb shared the same narrower definition of racism you quoted and reject the secondary definition I included.

    Apologies if I erred.

    No. But even if I did, I really don't see how the secondary definition would change my thought. Nothing Ryan says indicates white superiority based on characteristics of race.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    No. But even if I did, I really don't see how the secondary definition would change my thought. Nothing Ryan says indicates white superiority based on characteristics of race.

    Again, it was not comment on Ryan. It was a comment on the definition(s) of racism. I have no opinion as to whether Ryan is a racist.


    You quoted selectively to make your point, I quoted the entire entry to make mine.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • JulietJuliet Posts: 0
    Well, put me down for still not getting whatever point it is you're trying to make.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 10,043 Senior Member
    OK - Will do.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.

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