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The Budapest Memorandum

jbillyjbilly Senior MemberPosts: 6,021 Senior Member
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  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 3,099 Senior Member
    If there is a shooting match it will be because the U.S. neocons have been spoiling for regime change in Ukraine for years. Nuland's infamous phone call talked about spending 5 billion there to accomplish regime change and who should be put in power there. It won't be Putin's fault if the shooting starts, it'll be ours

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/

    Now, you have Assistant Secretary of State Nuland, the wife of prominent neocon Robert Kagan, acting as a leading instigator in the Ukrainian unrest, explicitly seeking to pry the country out of the Russian orbit. Last December, she reminded Ukrainian business leaders that, to help Ukraine achieve “its European aspirations, we have invested more than $5 billion.” She said the U.S. goal was to take “Ukraine into the future that it deserves.”

    The Kagan family includes other important neocons, such as Frederick Kagan, who was a principal architect of the Iraq and Afghan “surge” strategies. In Duty, Gates writes that “an important way station in my ‘pilgrim’s progress’ from skepticism to support of more troops [in Afghanistan] was an essay by the historian Fred Kagan, who sent me a prepublication draft.

    “I knew and respected Kagan. He had been a prominent proponent of the surge in Iraq, and we had talked from time to time about both wars, including one long evening conversation on the veranda of one of Saddam’s palaces in Baghdad.”

    Now, another member of the Kagan family, albeit an in-law, has been orchestrating the escalation of tensions in Ukraine with an eye toward one more “regime change.”
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,021 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    If there is a shooting match it....won't be Putin's fault if the shooting starts, it'll be ours

    Umm refresh my memory again, how many troops have we sent into the Ukraine? And how many has Vlad?
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,021 Senior Member
    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_RUSSIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-02-28-17-18-37

    "Any violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity would be deeply destabilizing," Obama declared. Such action by Russia would represent a "profound interference" in matters that must be decided by the Ukrainian people, he said.

    Well at least he didn't draw a red line that has already been crossed.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 3,099 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    Umm refresh my memory again, how many troops have we sent into the Ukraine? And how many has Vlad?

    http://original.antiwar.com/Chris_Ernesto/2014/02/28/look-who-the-us-is-siding-with-in-ukraine-egypt-and-syria/

    Look Who the US Is Siding With in Ukraine, Egypt, and Syria

    US quietly partners with neo-**** in Ukraine, fascists in Egypt, and al-Qaeda in Syria

    The now infamous ‘f**k the EU’ leaked phone conversation between Nuland and Pyatt revealed the role played by the United States in supporting Ukraine’s far-right opposition in its (ultimately successful) attempt to overthrow the left-leaning Yanukovych. “The utter criminality of Washington’s drive to install a pliant regime in Kiev sharply emerges in Nuland and Pyatt’s discussion of Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the neo-fascist Svoboda party (who recently met with John McCain in Kiev). Nuland describes Tyahnybok as one of the “big three” within the opposition leadership. These remarks confirm that there is no confusion whatsoever within the Obama administration that it is working in partnership with fascist movements in Ukraine,” wrote Patrick O’Connor
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    It won't be Putin's fault if the shooting starts, it'll be ours

    Ed, that's just BS. The US might have been trying to influence events in the Ukraine but we certainly had no intention of invading. Putin has done exactly that and if shooting starts it will be his fault entirely.

    It amazes me how you can defend the invasion of a sovereign country by Putin. His actions are **** close to what we did in Iraq.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • WetdogWetdog Senior Member Posts: 5,967 Senior Member
    Ed often I find myself with some "sympathy" if not agreement on many of your posts over the years, but I am afraid this is way, way absurd. I don't know any way else to describe it. The "coloring" and "shading"of any and every circumstance, conversations,.......into dark manipulation etc. Sure Ed all kinds of shady stuff happens behind the scenes, but to keep looking to blame the U.S. for everything, well, is kinda crazy.

    You know that I don't trust government on a number of levels, I don't trust all characters involved. We are no prime mover of this mess, the EU has the influence not us. Have you talked to any everyday Ukrainians, or does all your info come from Amerika hate blogs? I know people there, most are scared of Putin's threats. It is the guy with no shirt while riding horses who is the enemy, not the EU and not even Amerika (this time).

    Cheney and Rummy are no longer on the job. Though I did read on some crazy blog that they are still pulling the strings.
    I find the assault on free thought disturbing,
    I find the willingness to give it up frightening.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 3,099 Senior Member
    http://original.antiwar.com/Chris_Ernesto/2014/02/28/look-who-the-us-is-siding-with-in-ukraine-egypt-and-Syria

    What if Russia did the same thing in Mexico, instigated a coup and took over the government? Wouldn't the U.S. invade Mexico and ensure a friendly government there? Ukraine is on the Russian border.

    Michael, we disagree on this. The U.S. has been instrumental in the Ukraine coup and it is understandable that Russia would step in to prevent that happening on their front step. If the U.S. were not involved in causing the coup, Russia would not be invading.
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    http://original.antiwar.com/Chris_Ernesto/2014/02/28/look-who-the-us-is-siding-with-in-ukraine-egypt-and-Syria

    What if Russia did the same thing in Mexico, instigated a coup and took over the government? Wouldn't the U.S. invade Mexico and ensure a friendly government there? Ukraine is on the Russian border.

    Michael, we disagree on this. The U.S. has been instrumental in the Ukraine coup and it is understandable that Russia would step in to prevent that happening on their front step. If the U.S. were not involved in causing the coup, Russia would not be invading.

    It's not understandable Ed, it's a freaking invasion of a sovereign country by Russia in direct violation of a treaty. Unless you believe somehow that the 1000's of protestors in the streets of Kiev are all paid USA provocateurs you have a serious problem.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 4,372 Senior Member
    Ed, you remind me of so many far leftists back in the day who hated the U.S. and the West so much that they refused to believe the credible stories about the gulags and what murderers Joseph Stalin and the Soviets were. Similar to the people who went to Cuba to cut sugar cane for Fidel, thinking that Castro believed in democracy and freedom for the people. If you don't get that this is about Russian imperialism over their neighbors you are hopeless.
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 3,099 Senior Member
    What you don't get is the U. S. imperialism in Afghan, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan, Ukraine, and the entire Middle East region. It's hypocritical to say it's ok for the U.S. To invade and occupy sovereign countries but then be outraged when other countries do that. No country should invade another country but the U.S. should practice what it preaches before condemning other countries for doing so.
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    EdB wrote: »
    What you don't get is the U. S. imperialism in Afghan, Iraq, Yemen, Pakistan, Ukraine, and the entire Middle East region. It's hypocritical to say it's ok for the U.S. To invade and occupy sovereign countries but then be outraged when other countries do that. No country should invade another country but the U.S. should practice what it preaches before condemning other countries for doing so.

    Ed, I believe there are very few here who believe it's "OK" for the U.S. to recklessly invade and occupy other countries. In fact our record of invasions is pretty **** slim. Going back to the 50's in Korea (a UN action), Vietnam (invited by the South Vietnam government, Kuwait (we freed the country and then left). Afghanistan and Iraq are different stories and many here think Iraq was a gigantic mistake. Some believe Afghanistan was also. I don't see many war hawks here.

    On the other hand let's not forget the USSR's own incursion into Afghanistan, and Russia's aggression in Kosovo.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,021 Senior Member
    dryflie wrote: »
    On the other hand let's not forget the USSR's own incursion into Afghanistan, and Russia's aggression in Kosovo.

    Don't forget Georgia
  • EdBEdB Senior Member Posts: 3,099 Senior Member
    dryflie wrote: »
    Ed, I believe there are very few here who believe it's "OK" for the U.S. to recklessly invade and occupy other countries. In fact our record of invasions is pretty **** slim. Going back to the 50's in Korea (a UN action), Vietnam (invited by the South Vietnam government, Kuwait (we freed the country and then left). Afghanistan and Iraq are different stories and many here think Iraq was a gigantic mistake. Some believe Afghanistan was also. I don't see many war hawks here.

    On the other hand let's not forget the USSR's own incursion into Afghanistan, and Russia's aggression in Kosovo.

    We assassinated Diehm and then lied about the Tonkin Gulf incident to fool the AMercian people into accepting our invasion and occupation of Vietnam Nam. They invited us after we put our guy in power there. U. S. Imperialism at its worst
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    dryflie wrote: »
    It's not understandable Ed, it's a freaking invasion of a sovereign country by Russia in direct violation of a treaty. Unless you believe somehow that the 1000's of protestors in the streets of Kiev are all paid USA provocateurs you have a serious problem.

    It is a bit more nuanced than that and that is by design. The Russian Federation has several agreements in place that give them some leeway here. Partly agreements regarding military installations that Russia has inside Ukraine's borders. It would be similar if Germany suddenly was on the brink of a civil war. Which is what we have here. The Crimea is a region that is sympathetic to Russia. The "former President" of Ukraine has refused to relinquish his authority to the Ukrainian Parliament and Russia has refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government. They could engage in hostilities under the guise of restoring the legitimate government of the Ukraine. Plus this is very similar to when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. There is no way a war weary United States is going to support any commitment of troops into the Ukraine. Putin pretty much has us checked and mated.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,021 Senior Member
    There is no way a war weary United States is going to support any commitment of troops into the Ukraine. Putin pretty much has us checked and mated.

    +1. Point...Set...Match

    Vlad knows we aren't going to do anything.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    +1. Point...Set...Match

    Vlad knows we aren't going to do anything.

    It's none of our business.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    +1. Point...Set...Match

    Vlad knows we aren't going to do anything.

    The question is what are the Ukrainian people and the European Union going to do.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,210 Senior Member
    If the EU gets dragged in, it probably means NATO has to get involved which seriously escalates the situation..

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 3,119 Senior Member
    Putin.jpg
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,021 Senior Member
    The question is what are the Ukrainian people and the European Union going to do.

    My guess is that the Ukraine will cut it losses and let the Crimea break away versus getting into any conflict with Vlad. The EU, seeing how the US won't do jack squat, will do the exact same. Everyone will cry but everyone wil sit back and watch it happen.
  • ricinusricinus Senior Member Posts: 6,210 Senior Member
    I wonder if the Ukraine had kept its nuclear arsenal if this would have happened. Looks like the treaties aren't worth the paper they are written on.

    Mike
    My new goal in life is to become an Alter Kaker...
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    If the people hadn't violently rebelled and had a peaceful transition of power without leaving any question regarding the legitimacy of the government this would not have happened. Russia is taking advantage of the unrest caused by the revolt. Now how much Russia manipulated that revolt is another matter.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Putin.jpg

    This pic could easily have been President Bush when he let the exact same scenario play out in Georgia. In fact his response to Georgia was even more anemic.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • dryfliedryflie Senior Member Posts: 1,442 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    My guess is that the Ukraine will cut it losses and let the Crimea break away versus getting into any conflict with Vlad. The EU, seeing how the US won't do jack squat, will do the exact same. Everyone will cry but everyone wil sit back and watch it happen.

    I agree, it's in no ones interest to make this a full out invasion of the Ukraine. Putin wants to protect his interest in the Crimea, he needs that naval base. Not much different than our interest in Gitmo. He'll make a deal if he's smart, otherwise it's another guerrilla war and the pressure of the EU and NATO against him.
    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” - John Kenneth Galbraith
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    Not to mention that the economic threat is real. The ruble is already in decline. He maintains his power through the economic stability of his nation. Without it he is another dictator subject to overthrow. Tossing him from the G8 and freezing his assets is not something that he wants to happen. But he has done the calculus and will probably be willing to deal with some discomfort to gain some prestige by claiming a victory in Crimea.

    The Ukrainian military by all accounts is in better shape than Georgia, however they would need some monetary support from the west to have even half a go at it.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 6,021 Senior Member
    dryflie wrote: »
    I agree, it's in no ones interest to make this a full out invasion of the Ukraine. Putin wants to protect his interest in the Crimea, he needs that naval base.

    Bingo! I think Vlad know he can't go all out or things would be different. I think even Obama would be forced into action if he tried to take the whole Ukraine. If he stays in the Crimea peninsula and claims to be protecting his military bases nothing further will happen.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 11,683 Senior Member
    The only leverage we (the West) have is economic sanctions and political isolation. Putin is acting like a typical Russian imperialist and probably thinks the consequences will be minimal. If we make it hurt enough he may back off, or at least not try to go beyond the Crimea.

    "Today Crimea, Tomorrow Poland and all the 'Stans" is what Russia would like, but that ain't gonna happen.
    The GOP big tent now is the size of a pup tent, its floor splattered with guano.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 26,564 Senior Member
    The Ukraine is also important to Putin's economic ambitions. He will try to at least solidify a pro-Russian government in Ukraine, though I don't know how possible that is at this point.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • WetdogWetdog Senior Member Posts: 5,967 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Putin.jpg

    This is plainly stupid.
    I find the assault on free thought disturbing,
    I find the willingness to give it up frightening.
  • WetdogWetdog Senior Member Posts: 5,967 Senior Member
    If the people hadn't violently rebelled and had a peaceful transition of power without leaving any question regarding the legitimacy of the government this would not have happened. Russia is taking advantage of the unrest caused by the revolt. Now how much Russia manipulated that revolt is another matter.

    And this is said without much thought. Peaceful transition? How was that going to happen. Far as I know their national legislature (whatever they call ill it) acted to remove the president. Not sure if those same individuals were out in the square throwing rocks. Peaceful or not Putin would have done the same. He wouldn't have moved in if his puppet was still there.

    Russia is going to feel the consequences.
    I find the assault on free thought disturbing,
    I find the willingness to give it up frightening.

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