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The Budapest Memorandum
Interesting. I sure hope Vlad doesn't get us into a shooting match.
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html
Replies
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/
Now, you have Assistant Secretary of State Nuland, the wife of prominent neocon Robert Kagan, acting as a leading instigator in the Ukrainian unrest, explicitly seeking to pry the country out of the Russian orbit. Last December, she reminded Ukrainian business leaders that, to help Ukraine achieve “its European aspirations, we have invested more than $5 billion.” She said the U.S. goal was to take “Ukraine into the future that it deserves.”
The Kagan family includes other important neocons, such as Frederick Kagan, who was a principal architect of the Iraq and Afghan “surge” strategies. In Duty, Gates writes that “an important way station in my ‘pilgrim’s progress’ from skepticism to support of more troops [in Afghanistan] was an essay by the historian Fred Kagan, who sent me a prepublication draft.
“I knew and respected Kagan. He had been a prominent proponent of the surge in Iraq, and we had talked from time to time about both wars, including one long evening conversation on the veranda of one of Saddam’s palaces in Baghdad.”
Now, another member of the Kagan family, albeit an in-law, has been orchestrating the escalation of tensions in Ukraine with an eye toward one more “regime change.”
Umm refresh my memory again, how many troops have we sent into the Ukraine? And how many has Vlad?
"Any violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity would be deeply destabilizing," Obama declared. Such action by Russia would represent a "profound interference" in matters that must be decided by the Ukrainian people, he said.
Well at least he didn't draw a red line that has already been crossed.
http://original.antiwar.com/Chris_Ernesto/2014/02/28/look-who-the-us-is-siding-with-in-ukraine-egypt-and-syria/
Look Who the US Is Siding With in Ukraine, Egypt, and Syria
US quietly partners with neo-**** in Ukraine, fascists in Egypt, and al-Qaeda in Syria
The now infamous ‘f**k the EU’ leaked phone conversation between Nuland and Pyatt revealed the role played by the United States in supporting Ukraine’s far-right opposition in its (ultimately successful) attempt to overthrow the left-leaning Yanukovych. “The utter criminality of Washington’s drive to install a pliant regime in Kiev sharply emerges in Nuland and Pyatt’s discussion of Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the neo-fascist Svoboda party (who recently met with John McCain in Kiev). Nuland describes Tyahnybok as one of the “big three” within the opposition leadership. These remarks confirm that there is no confusion whatsoever within the Obama administration that it is working in partnership with fascist movements in Ukraine,” wrote Patrick O’Connor
Ed, that's just BS. The US might have been trying to influence events in the Ukraine but we certainly had no intention of invading. Putin has done exactly that and if shooting starts it will be his fault entirely.
It amazes me how you can defend the invasion of a sovereign country by Putin. His actions are **** close to what we did in Iraq.
You know that I don't trust government on a number of levels, I don't trust all characters involved. We are no prime mover of this mess, the EU has the influence not us. Have you talked to any everyday Ukrainians, or does all your info come from Amerika hate blogs? I know people there, most are scared of Putin's threats. It is the guy with no shirt while riding horses who is the enemy, not the EU and not even Amerika (this time).
Cheney and Rummy are no longer on the job. Though I did read on some crazy blog that they are still pulling the strings.
I find the willingness to give it up frightening.
What if Russia did the same thing in Mexico, instigated a coup and took over the government? Wouldn't the U.S. invade Mexico and ensure a friendly government there? Ukraine is on the Russian border.
Michael, we disagree on this. The U.S. has been instrumental in the Ukraine coup and it is understandable that Russia would step in to prevent that happening on their front step. If the U.S. were not involved in causing the coup, Russia would not be invading.
It's not understandable Ed, it's a freaking invasion of a sovereign country by Russia in direct violation of a treaty. Unless you believe somehow that the 1000's of protestors in the streets of Kiev are all paid USA provocateurs you have a serious problem.
Ed, I believe there are very few here who believe it's "OK" for the U.S. to recklessly invade and occupy other countries. In fact our record of invasions is pretty **** slim. Going back to the 50's in Korea (a UN action), Vietnam (invited by the South Vietnam government, Kuwait (we freed the country and then left). Afghanistan and Iraq are different stories and many here think Iraq was a gigantic mistake. Some believe Afghanistan was also. I don't see many war hawks here.
On the other hand let's not forget the USSR's own incursion into Afghanistan, and Russia's aggression in Kosovo.
Don't forget Georgia
We assassinated Diehm and then lied about the Tonkin Gulf incident to fool the AMercian people into accepting our invasion and occupation of Vietnam Nam. They invited us after we put our guy in power there. U. S. Imperialism at its worst
It is a bit more nuanced than that and that is by design. The Russian Federation has several agreements in place that give them some leeway here. Partly agreements regarding military installations that Russia has inside Ukraine's borders. It would be similar if Germany suddenly was on the brink of a civil war. Which is what we have here. The Crimea is a region that is sympathetic to Russia. The "former President" of Ukraine has refused to relinquish his authority to the Ukrainian Parliament and Russia has refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government. They could engage in hostilities under the guise of restoring the legitimate government of the Ukraine. Plus this is very similar to when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. There is no way a war weary United States is going to support any commitment of troops into the Ukraine. Putin pretty much has us checked and mated.
+1. Point...Set...Match
Vlad knows we aren't going to do anything.
It's none of our business.
The question is what are the Ukrainian people and the European Union going to do.
Mike
My guess is that the Ukraine will cut it losses and let the Crimea break away versus getting into any conflict with Vlad. The EU, seeing how the US won't do jack squat, will do the exact same. Everyone will cry but everyone wil sit back and watch it happen.
Mike
This pic could easily have been President Bush when he let the exact same scenario play out in Georgia. In fact his response to Georgia was even more anemic.
I agree, it's in no ones interest to make this a full out invasion of the Ukraine. Putin wants to protect his interest in the Crimea, he needs that naval base. Not much different than our interest in Gitmo. He'll make a deal if he's smart, otherwise it's another guerrilla war and the pressure of the EU and NATO against him.
The Ukrainian military by all accounts is in better shape than Georgia, however they would need some monetary support from the west to have even half a go at it.
Bingo! I think Vlad know he can't go all out or things would be different. I think even Obama would be forced into action if he tried to take the whole Ukraine. If he stays in the Crimea peninsula and claims to be protecting his military bases nothing further will happen.
"Today Crimea, Tomorrow Poland and all the 'Stans" is what Russia would like, but that ain't gonna happen.
This is plainly stupid.
I find the willingness to give it up frightening.
And this is said without much thought. Peaceful transition? How was that going to happen. Far as I know their national legislature (whatever they call ill it) acted to remove the president. Not sure if those same individuals were out in the square throwing rocks. Peaceful or not Putin would have done the same. He wouldn't have moved in if his puppet was still there.
Russia is going to feel the consequences.
I find the willingness to give it up frightening.