it seems to me that flies in the UK seem to be more simple, and impressionistic, while US flies often seem to be geared more to catching the fisherman, rather than the fish.
I could be wrong, and was wondering your thoughts. Thoughts?
It may be that we have more trout streams in the US? I am clueless so please correct me if I am wrong. If this is true, it may be that we have that luxury of making flies that are bright and pretty and the fish will still eat them. If you cut the number of miles of stream in the US in half, you will have more selective fish, even in the smaller streams. Then, I think we would have to tame our desire to create and fish the gaudy patterns. We would need to go to the more simple and immpressionistic patterns you are talking about.
Don't know how you are seeing this. The Adams, Griffith's Gnat, and Woolly Bugger are flies that just catch fishermen? I don't see English flies as simple. They are actually very complex to make them correctly. Some are impressionistic but many others are as realistic as any of those originating here. There are many of both types here and there. I don't think you can generalize on this.
I would think amount of pressure excerted on the limited number of British trout-streams would lead them to produce more realistic flies...
I haven't seen the same trend- I tend to believe fly design is more local than national, often tailored to specific rivers, water types, or conditions. For example, I choose heavily-hackled, impressionistic flies for western freestone streams because the hackle helps support the fly as it tumbles about on the surface. It's not that a more imitative pattern wouldn't work better, it's just not designed for that scenario. Conversely, if I'm fishing slack water I'll switch from an elk-hair caddis to a more imitative pattern of what's hatching- the slow water giving the fish more time to discriminate between the real thing and my forgery.
One trend I think I've noticed, though, is that European tiers tend to be more willing to experiment with materials and techniques, whereas American tiers seem to simply tweak patterns at the margins.
it seems to me that flies in the UK seem to be more simple, and impressionistic, while US flies often seem to be geared more to catching the fisherman, rather than the fish.
I could be wrong, and was wondering your thoughts. Thoughts?
Wait till ol' Roy or Dave Wiltshire sees this....
...if you wanna get to Heaven, you gotta raise a little hell!
I would think amount of pressure excerted on the limited number of British trout-streams would lead them to produce more realistic flies...
With the price it costs to fish on most British streams, and the fact that the number of rods per beat tends to be limited, I seriously doubt that pressure has anything to do with it. (Many, if not most, fly fishers over there fish reservoirs because they can't afford to fish on moving water.)
Historically (and I'm talking over a hundred years ago) American flies were somewhat more gaudy because American fished for brook trout, which seem to be more attracted to bright colors. This hasn't been true in a long time.
I see at least as much variation between Catskill flies and flies from the Rockies as I do between "British" and "American" flies. (The flies I've caught trout on over the last month or so have been a Patridge and Orange, a Snipe and Purple, and a Grouse and Herl. Do they count as American or British?)
Don't know how you are seeing this. The Adams, Griffith's Gnat, and Woolly Bugger are flies that just catch fishermen? I don't see English flies as simple. They are actually very complex to make them correctly. Some are impressionistic but many others are as realistic as any of those originating here. There are many of both types here and there. I don't think you can generalize on this.
I think the word "impressionistic" used by me, is incorrect.
I guess that I see a lot of US flies with a lot of uneeded crap (flash for instance, or maybe something on top of a dry fly that a fish would never see, but its an extra step that makes the fly appear more exact). I do not see these things as much when I have looked at flies from UK tiers. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong pages. I don't make it a habit to look at flies online. I just know what I see at our local western shops, and local shop webpages.
Fly patterns differ from Country to Country and even from river to river in the same geographic area. I do see more pattern variations in the USA but there are more tiers. Seems tiers in the USA want to create their own more than duplicate classics that produce.
I recently tied some Arkansas Red Butts for friends fishing the White River. Don't know why the Arkansas is in the name but it is nothing more than a red butt softhackle with a peacock herl body, almost identical to a traditional European pattern.
I sent a Wulff pattern to a European tier and he thought it was an awful fly, but he was more of a precision dainty soft hackle tier. It was a well tied Wulff but he didn't think so. Wulff patterns have their place in fast water rivers and they do catch fish.
I have seen European style tiers be very specific on the color and shade of floss but put it in the water and it changes. They tie for the tier more than the fish on that side of the ocean just like we do on this side. I know a lot of tiers and my favorite unique quality tiers are from Spain, France, and even Siberia. There are a few in the USA as well. Every one is quite different and I have to struggle hard to come half way close to duplicating them.
I must say... The most productive flies, overall, in my box are mostly European patterns. Ed.
Mark, my experience is not yours. But some concrete examples are in order. Are you talking about streamers? I could maybe agree there. I use a lot of Harrop patterns, they don't have any extra parts. Same goes for Buzz's Fly Shop patterns on Depuys. I guess I'm not seeing or using these complex patterns of which you speak. But as far as tying flies for the fisherman, that's only good business practice. The fish don't buy flies. And isn't a Czech nymph pretty complicated?
From my perspective, people are people and some fall prey to marketing while some are more realistic tyers, etc. Little difference beetween here and there
der Alte Jaeger
Chuck Scheerschmidt
"I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved"
I am far from being an expert here but we should consider that the history of fly design (evolution) must play a part. If a fly works in your local area future variations will be related to that, and on and on. Also,while I've never fished in the U.K. I get the impression that there is much more fishing in lakes and less in fast moving water. Thirdly, the U.K. history of fly fishing seems to be based on wet flies while the great explosion in the sport in the States was with the Catskill dries and New England trolling streamers.
You hit on the core of the differences, Ray. Different history and different water. Some of my most productive flies are of European origin from countries with rivers and insects quite similar to where I fish (Blue Ridge and Smokies), not the U.K. region. Ed.
it seems to me that flies in the UK seem to be more simple, and impressionistic, while US flies often seem to be geared more to catching the fisherman, rather than the fish.
I could be wrong, and was wondering your thoughts. Thoughts?
Seems to me to ignore the obvious counter -Full dress Atlantics.
I do not see much of a difference nowadays. With the advent of internet the world becomes a much smaller place.
Other than localised specialities such as Clyde Style & Spiders I think flies on all sides are very similar & if they are not is is easier to get dressings. In days of yore one relied on books but the internet has changed all that.
I would be quite happy fishing my flies Stateside & likewise an American angler here.
I do not see much of a difference nowadays. With the advent of internet the world becomes a much smaller place.
Highlander
I totally agree with this line but you would find that Clyde style flies (Tweed and Tummel too) and Yorkshire spiders are also present and discussed on this side of the pond. See the IBF postings on the Flymph Forum.
International fly suppliers have also made the world a much more uniform world. I have found our local Umpqua Feather Merchant flies as the major display in stores in London and Paris. Itallian shops may have English and Swiss flies as their main source of trout flies.
Copyright © 2009 Intermedia Outdoors
It may be that we have more trout streams in the US? I am clueless so please correct me if I am wrong. If this is true, it may be that we have that luxury of making flies that are bright and pretty and the fish will still eat them. If you cut the number of miles of stream in the US in half, you will have more selective fish, even in the smaller streams. Then, I think we would have to tame our desire to create and fish the gaudy patterns. We would need to go to the more simple and immpressionistic patterns you are talking about.
Juan
http://hopperjuan.blogspot.com/
Don't know how you are seeing this. The Adams, Griffith's Gnat, and Woolly Bugger are flies that just catch fishermen? I don't see English flies as simple. They are actually very complex to make them correctly. Some are impressionistic but many others are as realistic as any of those originating here. There are many of both types here and there. I don't think you can generalize on this.
Norwegian Fly Fisher in the Driftless
My tying has, of late, been greatly influenced and motivated by some innovative tiers in the UK. Here are two of them:
http://davewiltshireflytying.blogspot.com/
http://smallflyfunk.blogspot.com/
PT/TB
Daughter to Father" How many arms do you have? How many fly rods do you need?"
http://planettrout.wordpress.com/
I would think amount of pressure excerted on the limited number of British trout-streams would lead them to produce more realistic flies...
I haven't seen the same trend- I tend to believe fly design is more local than national, often tailored to specific rivers, water types, or conditions. For example, I choose heavily-hackled, impressionistic flies for western freestone streams because the hackle helps support the fly as it tumbles about on the surface. It's not that a more imitative pattern wouldn't work better, it's just not designed for that scenario. Conversely, if I'm fishing slack water I'll switch from an elk-hair caddis to a more imitative pattern of what's hatching- the slow water giving the fish more time to discriminate between the real thing and my forgery.
One trend I think I've noticed, though, is that European tiers tend to be more willing to experiment with materials and techniques, whereas American tiers seem to simply tweak patterns at the margins.
Wait till ol' Roy or Dave Wiltshire sees this....
...if you wanna get to Heaven, you gotta raise a little hell!
With the price it costs to fish on most British streams, and the fact that the number of rods per beat tends to be limited, I seriously doubt that pressure has anything to do with it. (Many, if not most, fly fishers over there fish reservoirs because they can't afford to fish on moving water.)
Historically (and I'm talking over a hundred years ago) American flies were somewhat more gaudy because American fished for brook trout, which seem to be more attracted to bright colors. This hasn't been true in a long time.
I see at least as much variation between Catskill flies and flies from the Rockies as I do between "British" and "American" flies. (The flies I've caught trout on over the last month or so have been a Patridge and Orange, a Snipe and Purple, and a Grouse and Herl. Do they count as American or British?)
Bob
I think the word "impressionistic" used by me, is incorrect.
I guess that I see a lot of US flies with a lot of uneeded crap (flash for instance, or maybe something on top of a dry fly that a fish would never see, but its an extra step that makes the fly appear more exact). I do not see these things as much when I have looked at flies from UK tiers. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong pages. I don't make it a habit to look at flies online. I just know what I see at our local western shops, and local shop webpages.
Mark G
Fly patterns differ from Country to Country and even from river to river in the same geographic area. I do see more pattern variations in the USA but there are more tiers. Seems tiers in the USA want to create their own more than duplicate classics that produce.
I recently tied some Arkansas Red Butts for friends fishing the White River. Don't know why the Arkansas is in the name but it is nothing more than a red butt softhackle with a peacock herl body, almost identical to a traditional European pattern.
I sent a Wulff pattern to a European tier and he thought it was an awful fly, but he was more of a precision dainty soft hackle tier. It was a well tied Wulff but he didn't think so. Wulff patterns have their place in fast water rivers and they do catch fish.
I have seen European style tiers be very specific on the color and shade of floss but put it in the water and it changes. They tie for the tier more than the fish on that side of the ocean just like we do on this side. I know a lot of tiers and my favorite unique quality tiers are from Spain, France, and even Siberia. There are a few in the USA as well. Every one is quite different and I have to struggle hard to come half way close to duplicating them.
I must say... The most productive flies, overall, in my box are mostly European patterns. Ed.
Ed,
when you mention Siberia, are you referring to Vladimir Markov (sp?)?
thanks, and thanks for you thoughts. I guess the universal truth is a lot of the flies are tied for the tier/buyer, and not for the fish.
cheers,
Markg
Mark G
Mark, my experience is not yours. But some concrete examples are in order. Are you talking about streamers? I could maybe agree there. I use a lot of Harrop patterns, they don't have any extra parts. Same goes for Buzz's Fly Shop patterns on Depuys. I guess I'm not seeing or using these complex patterns of which you speak. But as far as tying flies for the fisherman, that's only good business practice. The fish don't buy flies. And isn't a Czech nymph pretty complicated?
Eric
Eric http://traditionalflies.com/
From my perspective, people are people and some fall prey to marketing while some are more realistic tyers, etc. Little difference beetween here and there
der Alte Jaeger
Chuck Scheerschmidt
"I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved"
Yes, Mark. Vladimir is one of the most unique and talented tiers I know. A true artist. Ed.
I am far from being an expert here but we should consider that the history of fly design (evolution) must play a part. If a fly works in your local area future variations will be related to that, and on and on. Also,while I've never fished in the U.K. I get the impression that there is much more fishing in lakes and less in fast moving water. Thirdly, the U.K. history of fly fishing seems to be based on wet flies while the great explosion in the sport in the States was with the Catskill dries and New England trolling streamers.
Just my opinions.
You hit on the core of the differences, Ray. Different history and different water. Some of my most productive flies are of European origin from countries with rivers and insects quite similar to where I fish (Blue Ridge and Smokies), not the U.K. region. Ed.
Seems to me to ignore the obvious counter -Full dress Atlantics.
Who speaks for the fish?
I do not see much of a difference nowadays. With the advent of internet the world becomes a much smaller place.
Other than localised specialities such as Clyde Style & Spiders I think flies on all sides are very similar & if they are not is is easier to get dressings. In days of yore one relied on books but the internet has changed all that.
I would be quite happy fishing my flies Stateside & likewise an American angler here.
Tight Lines
Alan the Highlander Scotlandhttp://www.thehighlanderway.com
Highlander
I totally agree with this line but you would find that Clyde style flies (Tweed and Tummel too) and Yorkshire spiders are also present and discussed on this side of the pond. See the IBF postings on the Flymph Forum.
http://www.flymphforum.com
International fly suppliers have also made the world a much more uniform world. I have found our local Umpqua Feather Merchant flies as the major display in stores in London and Paris. Itallian shops may have English and Swiss flies as their main source of trout flies.
Happy feather bending!
Who speaks for the fish?