If Rubio gets this child tax credit thing done

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  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,201 Senior Member
    My Nephew had fantastic grades and could not get into his first choice for college. How does someone with average grades from a poorly funded public school get into college? Not all people are college material, should they live below the poverty line and not be able to live a decent life?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,068 Senior Member
    Both of my kids (now 25 and 26 years old) went to college after high school. They both have school loans to pay back over a 10 year period.

    They are both making quite a bit more than $9-11/hour. The monthly loan payment has stayed fixed and their incomes have gone up since starting their jobs. One of my kids... the place he works for is also helping him pay back his current school loan and paying for him to attend college to advance his degree.

    Sometimes you need to think long term, instead of the immediate debt you are saddled with upon graduating college.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,201 Senior Member
    Again not everyone is college material. Should they be doomed to a life of poverty?
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 2,798 Senior Member
    Again not everyone is college material. Should they be doomed to a life of poverty?

    Again one needs a skill to sell. No marketable skills one should not expect a high paying job.
    College is not a requirement for a good paying job.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,201 Senior Member
    I didn't say high paying.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 2,798 Senior Member
    I didn't say high paying.

    You lived out here what do you consider a decent wage? It sure as hell is not $15:00 an hour.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie just look at the flowers.
  • fishingcomicfishingcomic Senior Member Posts: 21,201 Senior Member
    Well it definitely is not $11. $15 would not put you in a great neighborhood or buy you a house. But it will put food on the table.
    'I've spoken of the Shining City all my political life. …In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still.'" Ronald Reagan
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,068 Senior Member
    Again not everyone is college material. Should they be doomed to a life of poverty?

    Agreed that not everyone is college material. My wife doesn't have a college degree but made choices to better herself by advancing her skillset in other areas with some training so she wouldn't have to work at jobs paying $9-$11/hour.

    A degree isn't everything when it comes to future earning power...
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 4,551 Senior Member

    A degree isn't everything when it comes to future earning power...

    True, and not all degrees equate to making a lot of cash. Case in point is my SIL. She has a masters I believe in recreation. Shes 43 years old, still paying off student loans for it, never worked a day in that field in her life and makes about $16 per hour. A total waste of time and money.

    Its great people want to go to college, but to rack up a 100k of student loans on a degree at fancy schools and have a job paying 50k a year and pay off student loans for it for years seems nuts to me.

    I think its a shame we no longer have trade schools. Would serve a lot of people well IMO.
    “Labor unions are super-PACs. Labor unions are super-PACs Democrats like so we don’t go after labor unions .”
    -Howard Screamin Dean
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,068 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    I think its a shame we no longer have trade schools. Would serve a lot of people well IMO.

    We still do. At least around me we do...they are called Community Colleges or Technical Colleges.

    My BIL went to the local Technical College for a 1-1/2 years for welding and came out with with a certificate from the program and not a degree. He's 37 years old right now and made over $100,000 last year.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,220 Senior Member
    Part of the problem with people being funneled to college vs. trade schools is that a lot of school systems and states evaluate high schools based on how many students they send to college. The number that actually graduate is not a metric used, so we've allowed a system that's pushing folks who would be better suited to the trades into an environment they may not be a good fit for.

    There's also our society's fixation on the degree as a measure of the quality of person one is. Rather than basing one's worth on how well they do their job, we value them based on a piece or two of paper hanging on the wall.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,068 Senior Member
    That's why that piece of paper is important. Most places won't even consider interviewing you if you don't have it.

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  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,298 Senior Member
    jbilly wrote: »
    True, and not all degrees equate to making a lot of cash. Case in point is my SIL. She has a masters I believe in recreation. Shes 43 years old, still paying off student loans for it, never worked a day in that field in her life and makes about $16 per hour. A total waste of time and money.

    Its great people want to go to college, but to rack up a 100k of student loans on a degree at fancy schools and have a job paying 50k a year and pay off student loans for it for years seems nuts to me.

    I think its a shame we no longer have trade schools. Would serve a lot of people well IMO.

    My wife is in a similar situation. She got a psychology degree (psychology is Greek for ‘f****** uselss’) from a very, very good school in SLC. She has never worked a single day in that field. She has a good job that she could not have got if it weren’t for her degree but she would have been better off attending the University of Utah. The college debt is huge and it seems like their is no end in sight.
    So, being as this is an all to familiar story, what can be done to solve the problem? How much personal responsibility do you want to put on an 18 year old to make the proper decisions? At least my wife went to a real school. What about HS graduates who make truly horrific decisions and pay good money to attend a private and non-accredited “college.”
    This whole thing is a mess and capitalism exascerbates the problem.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 1,912 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    This whole thing is a mess and capitalism exascerbates the problem.

    Huh. Interesting.

    The rising cost of college tuitions has far outpaced food inflation, oil inflation, car inflation. All are subject to capitalism.

    What is it about capitalism that causes a problem with college tuition?
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,298 Senior Member
    Like for-profit healthcare, for-profit education is amoral.
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 1,535 Senior Member
    Post secondary is a business here as well

    Trying to take advantage of impressionable young people---Give them scholarships Einstein could not live up to

    And kids want to live happily ever after --right? So lets take Mind Reading or the Dewey decimal system

    When my kids were coming out of high school---I told them---find the job 1st----tailor your education to achieve it---not the other way round

    At least recently our gov't does not require loan payments till the student is making 25 g's/yr
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 1,912 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    Like for-profit healthcare, for-profit education is amoral.

    How about for profit food? For profit TV broadcasting? For profit life insurance? For profit home lending?

    Newsflash. If it weren't for profit, most people wouldn't do ****.


    That said, you didn't answer my question. What is it about college tuition that makes it unworkable in a capitalist system?
  • BushartBushart Senior Member Posts: 1,535 Senior Member
    Some countries in the world view education as well as healthcare as a basic right of citizenship

    A better educated/healthy mass makes for a better population---more productive and stable

    Apologies Shawner---not tryin to steal your thunder
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 1,912 Senior Member
    Bushart wrote: »
    Some countries in the world view education as well as healthcare as a basic right of citizenship

    A better educated/healthy mass makes for a better population---more productive and stable

    Apologies Shawner---not tryin to steal your thunder

    I understand that. That's a valid, normative decision. But that's not what I'm questioning.

    The statement was that "capitalism exacerbates the problem [of rapidly rising tuition costs]." I'd like to understand why and how.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,298 Senior Member
    Because profit. It isn’t anything complicated, Steven. I find these small “colleges,” you know the type, to be predatory in nature. They are just non-accredited profit centers. Part of me says if you are dumb enough to attend them then shame on you. Another part of me thinks the government should protect the public against these profit centers for the good of society.
    Just make post-secondary schools public or not-for-profit private entities. Just because you can add layers of profit to something doesn’t mean you should. It’s a philosophical argument just like BA said above. That’s all I got on this subject.
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 1,912 Senior Member
    Ah. I thought you were commenting on rising tuition costs. That that had something to do with capitalism.
  • CO NativeCO Native Senior Member Posts: 820 Senior Member
    I'm not sure where you guys are getting these numbers of $100k for education, maybe Harvard.
    My son is 23 years old. He went to the University of Wyoming over Colorado State because of the cost. Tuition and rent together were the same cost as tuition only at CSU and he got to go to a much better school.
    He worked hard and graduated in 3-1/2 years, got a good job using his degree and will have his debt paid off in a few months.
    He'll be buying a home in a year.
    Too may kids these days get those loans and use the money for things other than tuition. They don't work over the breaks and are just lazy and stupid. I've seen it with a lot of his friends. I don't feel sorry for them.
  • George KGeorge K Super Moderator Posts: 8,363 Senior Member
    Shawn C. wrote: »
    She has a good job that she could not have got if it weren’t for her degree but she would have been better off attending the University of Utah.

    This the key to what you posted. Companies and government agencies often use a degree as an "MET" ("minimum education and training, or equivalent" requirement for many jobs. A degree is a general indication that an inexperienced candidate has the , intelligence, skills and ability to perform the requirements of the position. A candidate without one needs to demonstrate experience comparable to earning a degree.
    Keep your stinkin' government hands off my Medicare.
  • Shawn C.Shawn C. Senior Member Posts: 5,298 Senior Member
    CO Native, Well, my wife worked 20 hours a week or more (she worked three part time jobs her senior year) and carried a minor. Graduated in 4+ 1 summer semestereven and still has $SHLOAD to pay off. Just so you can see where how it can happen. I wish you would have advised her of the perils of getting a degree in a useless field at an expensive school because nobody else did.
    As an aside, I did not know Wyoming was a better school than CSU.
  • creekguycreekguy Senior Member Posts: 3,905 Senior Member
    Steven wrote: »
    Huh. Interesting.

    The rising cost of college tuitions has far outpaced food inflation, oil inflation, car inflation. All are subject to capitalism.

    What is it about capitalism that causes a problem with college tuition?

    That's an interesting question. its more political rivalry than economic theory perhaps. I think well-off parents who are willing to pay outrageous tuition for the prestige schools are a factor, as well as the easy availability of student loans. But the biggest political factor in state schools has been the shrinkage of state funding, and presently, federal funding. It should be noted that the taxation of endowment income, post docs and maybe some T.A.s (don't know) will put even more demands on state school budgets. Punishment for being liberal, I guess. To me, the greater good is making education available to those who will benefit from it and in the end benefit the country. We have a shortage of STEM graduates. Is this because we don't have enough quality students, or because many such prospects can't afford college?
  • jbillyjbilly Senior Member Posts: 4,551 Senior Member
    CO Native wrote: »
    I'm not sure where you guys are getting these numbers of $100k for education, maybe Harvard.
    My son is 23 years old. He went to the University of Wyoming over Colorado State because of the cost. Tuition and rent together were the same cost as tuition only at CSU and he got to go to a much better school.
    He worked hard and graduated in 3-1/2 years, got a good job using his degree and will have his debt paid off in a few months.
    He'll be buying a home in a year.
    Too may kids these days get those loans and use the money for things other than tuition. They don't work over the breaks and are just lazy and stupid. I've seen it with a lot of his friends. I don't feel sorry for them.


    That 100K number came from me. IN all honestly I made it up from what little infomration I know (my kids are 8 and 11, so I know they will need a **** ton, but I don't know how much). I have no idea where they will go to school. But I don't believe 100K is unrealistic.

    After reading your post I google CUs cost and almost crapped my pants....100k wont cut it

    https://bursar.colorado.edu/tuition-fees/annual-cost-estimate/undergraduate-colorado-resident/
    “Labor unions are super-PACs. Labor unions are super-PACs Democrats like so we don’t go after labor unions .”
    -Howard Screamin Dean
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 4,220 Senior Member
    I know a couple of folks who took out over $100K for loans, or their school cost that much or some such nonsense. OTOH, I know folks who went to state schools who paid less and got the same exact jobs.
  • sherbsherb Senior Member Posts: 1,627 Senior Member
    To answer your question, Steven I don't think capitalism is the culprit. I think it's government backed student loans. That's what's driving the cost of higher education. Cheap, easily available money for anyone smart enough to fill out the application.
  • NZ IndicatorNZ Indicator Senior Member Posts: 9,068 Senior Member
    What Sherb said.

    My kids didn't end up with $100k loans either. Seems awfully high.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
  • StevenSteven Senior Member Posts: 1,912 Senior Member
    creekguy wrote: »
    But the biggest political factor in state schools has been the shrinkage of state funding, and presently, federal funding.

    So, I just spend a few minutes looking up some numbers.

    In the period 2001-2015, state spending per state college student is down from about $7,100 (I eye-balled this number from a Pew Center Report) to $6,968. The number of students in state colleges over that time period increased from 12.23 million to 14.57 million. So, roughly, total state spending increased from roughly $86.8 billion annually to $101.5 billion annually.

    So state funding has trailed inflation a bit at 1.1% versus 2.1%. To make up the difference, tuition should have been rising at about 2.9% annually if my math is correct.

    The more rapid increase in tuition may reflect the growth of the Pell Grant program, which may be driving demand to outstrip supply.

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